Multi‑platinum producer, multi-instrumentalist, and sample pack maker Kaelin Ellis (Vince Staples, Kaytranada, TOKiMONSTA, and more) takes on the My Forever Studio challenge. This time, hear how NBA Street helped lead him to jazz and producer credits, how he develops “pocket”in his drumming, and how an upright piano he found backstage at a show made for one of his most vibey sample packs. As always, expect in-depth gear chat, and difficult decisions, studio stories and at least one obnoxious airhorn.
Multi‑platinum producer, multi-instrumentalist, and sample pack maker Kaelin Ellis (Vince Staples, Kaytranada, TOKiMONSTA, and more) takes on the My Forever Studio challenge. This time, hear how NBA Street helped lead him to jazz and producer credits, how he develops “pocket”in his drumming, and how an upright piano he found backstage at a show made for one of his most vibey sample packs.
As always, expect in-depth gear chat, and difficult decisions, studio stories and at least one obnoxious airhorn.
Season 8 of the My Forever Studio Podcast is supported by Audient, and the impressive new Horizon range of audio interfaces.
https://audient.com/
https://audient.com/products/audio-interfaces/horizon-range/
https://musictech.com/
https://tyxstudios.com/
STUFF WE TALK ABOUT (SPOILERS AHEAD)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTV_Music_Generator_2
https://reverb.com/uk/item/19727436-cb-drum-kit-wine-red
Sonic 3 OST: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMykhxy6Jrg
Kaeline Ellis’s MKRS Club: https://kaelinellis.gumroad.com/l/kketma
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSX_3
https://taos.org/explore/landmarks/taos-earthships/
https://www.instagram.com/sango_/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Street
D’Angelo, ‘Black Messiah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2r5yqjlVrI&list=PLDlzaWMepRBfViKfEfUwg_DZuQF6A4e6l
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_Pro
https://www.native-instruments.com/products/fm8
https://reverb.com/uk/p/yamaha-dx7
Yamaha PSR-510 demo songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpqxMmkwSuQ
https://pearldrum.com/eu/artist/joey-jordison
The Roots - You Got Me ft. Erykah Badu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJCHeEQV454
https://www.kawai.co.uk/products/uprightpianos/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphoria_Festival
Memo Piano: https://kaelinellis.gumroad.com/l/kkemp
Memo Piano 2: https://kaelinellis.gumroad.com/l/kkemp2
https://rode.com/en-gb/products/i-xy
https://planet.mu/artists/u-ziq/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_Vibert
https://www.instagram.com/beatsbyjblack/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meow_Wolf
Chris Barker:
Hi, I'm Chris Barker.
Will Betts:
And I'm Will Betts, and this is the MusicTech My Forever Studio podcast, brought to you in partnership with Audient.
Chris Barker:
In this podcast, we speak with musicians, DJs, engineers, and producers about their fantasy forever studio.
Will Betts:
That's right, the studios that our guests choose are ones that they must live with for all eternity, but they must adhere to our totally arbitrary rules.
Chris Barker:
No bundle! Okay, so our guests will select a computer, a DAW, and an audio interface. Those are the 3 items that we let everyone choose, then our guests will choose just 6 bits of kit plus 1 non-studio-related luxury item.
Will Betts:
However, Chris—
Chris Barker:
Yes? No bundles!
Will Betts:
That's right, choosing something sold as a package of separate software or hardware as a single item is strictly forbidden.
Chris Barker:
Our guest this time is a multi-platinum music producer, multi-instrumentalist, and sample pack maker who blew up on social media after dropping beat videos in 2020.
Will Betts:
That's right, he's a prolific collaborator with a vast list of credits, both as an artist and behind the scenes.
Chris Barker:
Yes, yes, we're talking Vince Staples, Kaytranada, previous guest Tokimonster, and more. Now he's gearing up to release his upcoming producer-driven album, Governor.
Will Betts:
Can't wait to get into it. This is My Forever Studio with Kaelin Ellis.
Chris Barker:
Here we go.
Will Betts:
Welcome, Kaelin.
Chris Barker:
Welcome.
Kaelin Ellis:
Glad to be here, guys. How you doing?
Will Betts:
Good, thanks.
Chris Barker:
We are good, we are good. But before we get going, let's talk a little bit about your career and how all of this came about.
Kaelin Ellis:
Oh man, um, Well, let's start from the beginning.
Chris Barker:
Yes.
Kaelin Ellis:
So my dad grew up a musician. He had a lot of experience within writing songs back in like the '80s, the '90s. He was also a church musician for majority of his life because my grandmother was also a pastor. So she spent majority of her time just inside of church and community. And he saw that I was interested in all this cool stuff with music. I was always looking at like the gear. I was always like, Let me bring home the magazines. Let me just take some of that stuff home.
Kaelin Ellis:
And he recorded a video of me when I was like 2 years old in 1999 saying like, oh, you're gonna be a great producer when you grow up. And I didn't even know what that meant. I really had no idea what that meant, but I just, I just knew I was really obsessed with the concept of making something. I was just really obsessed with like what this is. It makes a sound and I just wanted to know more. Fast forward, computer kid, 2000s, uh, Windows 98 me.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
It was the Professional Edition. I'll say it wasn't the best when it came to like performance, but it did teach me a lot about like the functions of how the computer works. And so there was always this voice recorder thing, and I was also prone to buying like all these headphones that just had microphone attachments to it. I would always go to school and try and snag one and then go home and try and use it, and I would always just be recording like random audio files. I have emails that go back to like 2002, 2003 where I'm just like, ugh, and like sending it off to my mom to be like, hey mom, can you play this? Can you tell me if this sounds cool? I would try the microphone. I even accidentally used the headphone as like a microphone thing. So I learned super early about how inputs and recording work.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
And I think when I got introduced to music production was, uh, I think it was 2004, 2003. MTV Music Generator.
Chris Barker:
Ah, is that PlayStation or was that on the Windows?
Kaelin Ellis:
It was on both. They have, uh, the MTV One, which was just like random loops, and then MTV Two, which was like they got the license by like Snoop Dogg, Pharrell, and all these guys to use the stems in the songs. Whoa.
Will Betts:
Wow.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, so that's, that's where it all kind of like sparked, I guess.
Chris Barker:
So you weren't playing drums or anything at this point, or instruments, or was that going alongside it?
Kaelin Ellis:
This was also happening alongside it. I would, every Sunday, along with my dad, he would bring this CB drum kit. It was a small little CB drum kit that they would have the cymbal attached to it. Yeah, yeah, it's like a little cocktail style. The little cocktail style kit for kids.
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
And so I remember my mom There's a story about how my mom learned from my dad that he was going to buy a drum kit. And she was like, what do you mean you're going to buy a drum kit for him? He's like, I'm going to buy him a drum kit and we're going to jam out on music. And my mom's like, you're crazy to buy a drum kit. But there's footage of me at the age of 2 to 8 playing on that same drum kit. I would go and play that same drum kit at church. I would literally bring it back home and I'd just be—
Will Betts:
Playing.
Kaelin Ellis:
Cramming away at it.
Chris Barker:
As somebody that grew up playing the drums as well, I also look back and think it's quite a bold move for a parent to buy a child a drum kit, knowing what comes with a drum kit. It's not like now with an electronic drum kit and a set of headphones, which still is noisy, you know, like even, even just whacking the V-drum pads, you know, it's noisy. But like, to buy a child an acoustic drum kit, that is some— that's some solid parenting.
Will Betts:
And a 2-year-old. Yeah, at that. Like, that's wild.
Kaelin Ellis:
There's some footage that I've been able to come across, and I was like, I didn't realize how long I've been doing it until I started seeing that footage.
Chris Barker:
Well, man, I mean, you, you can— as somebody that used to play drums, you can hear it. You're an absolutely fantastic drummer. And, um, I know Will wants to talk more on about like the, the idea of the pocket and all of that, but like, you, you've got that nailed. Did that lead you towards electronic music as well and influence that kind of that combination? Because obviously the rigidity of electronic music is its own thing. It sort of counters sometimes to that kind of groove.
Kaelin Ellis:
So you have to think there's the culture of like growing up as an internet kid during the age of video games with the Xbox and the PS2 and Dreamcast, GameCube. All of these different game avenues were like the introduction to programming, like all of it.
Will Betts:
Mm-hmm.
Kaelin Ellis:
And what's funny is all the homies that I know that make beats all grew up the exact same way of like, yeah, I used to watch so-and-so TV show, I used to play Sonic the Hedgehog, I used to play Sonic 3. And then when you would open up the menu of the game, there were songs of the game in the menu so you could listen individually one by one. So it's like there's a little bit of like Internet culture, the production, learning about like obviously MTV Music Generator. You're seeing guys like Snoop Dogg, Pharrell pop up, Timbaland are popping up, and you're just like, as a kid, this looks cool, but we don't know how to get to that point. Like, that doesn't even sound like a real thing, you know?
Will Betts:
Yeah, yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
And so, um, maybe around middle school was when I was in TV productions. And TV production is like the school version of creating a short-form introduction to how the agenda for the school is going to go. You basically record a song, record a video, and you present it to the entire school. And it usually drops on Fridays or Mondays. And you have to take the music you made and create something creative with it. So I got my introduction to GarageBand and Apple at that time within middle school, I think that was the point when I discovered that something about what we're doing with these tools can happen. There was a drum loop on GarageBand, and it's a very like—
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
That same drum loop, bro, that was Umbrella's drum break. by Rihanna.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, Vintage Funk Kit 03, I think it was.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, it was that one exactly. It was that one. And like, they had like this very well-known like, uh, horn sample as well.
Chris Barker:
They've all been removed since, haven't they? I think the labels have bought Apple out or something. And there's lots of them now, like Christina the Queen's— the little Rhodes loop on Girlfriend, I think, is from GarageBand as well. And yeah, they're not going to end up with any samples left.
Kaelin Ellis:
Dude, that, that time period for just being introduced to it— music programming, computer culture— it was all about like a community space. Like, I remember being in middle school and YouTube, 2007, 2008, became a new thing. Like, people upload stuff on YouTube. And so I got my introduction to like typing in the video game soundtracks. People were nerding out in the forums about like video game soundtracks, like OSTs. keys, and like every video game that I had ever learned, people are online talking about it. So that opened up conversations about like who's making the music.
Will Betts:
So was that all on YouTube? Were there other places as well that you went for that at that time?
Kaelin Ellis:
So, oh man, so I remember after school we'd just be on the buses, be like, yo, what video games did you download? Or what, what video games did you buy? And so that would start with, oh, NBA Street is like one of my favorite video games. Like, what's, what's You ever like try to do a game breaker and the track, the beat just switches completely? And I never knew that was a guy named Just Blaze.
Will Betts:
Ah.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, Just Blaze was my first introduction to like beat-making producers.
Will Betts:
Yeah, wow.
Kaelin Ellis:
And yeah, and so when you looked at all the video games, they were producers producing the songs for the video games. Yeah, of course.
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
So it put in my mind, if I want to know how to do this, I got to know who they are. And so the soundtrack, I learned about Pete Rock and CL Smooth. I learned about all those guys. And then you take that same technology and apply it to SSX3.
Chris Barker:
Yep.
Kaelin Ellis:
And that's where the electronic side of my mind started to kind of like— that was when it started to snowball because we all just played the same video games and talk about like, yo, you heard that beat? That was crazy.
Will Betts:
So That is a great pun as well. Snowball about a snowboarding game. Hats off to you on that one, mate.
Kaelin Ellis:
I didn't even think— see, I'm a writer.
Chris Barker:
It's just, just flowing out of you.
Kaelin Ellis:
It's good.
Chris Barker:
Let's first talk about a location for the Forever Studio. If you could build a Fantasy Forever Studio anywhere in the world, tell us where and why. And what, what the vibe would be like, what the building would be like, what the room would be like.
Will Betts:
Money no object.
Chris Barker:
Money no object.
Kaelin Ellis:
If money was not an object, the location that I would pick for a studio would be— oh, this is gonna sound crazy.
Chris Barker:
Go for it, we love it.
Kaelin Ellis:
Taos, New Mexico. So T-A-O-S, New Mexico.
Will Betts:
Okay, why Taos, New Mexico of all places?
Kaelin Ellis:
So I got out of college around 2017 and developed some really good friendships with people in music. And one of those friendships connected to Kaytranada was a guy named Sango. I went on tour with him and we played a city specifically called Santa Fe.
Chris Barker:
Okay.
Kaelin Ellis:
Santa Fe introduced me to Albuquerque, which is the more communal aspect. And they said, oh, all the creatives here in New Mexico come here. for inspiration and just kind of be left alone and quiet.
Chris Barker:
Wow.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah. And so I had an experience in 2019 where I started growing out my afro, and I had like the hair pick, and I was making a lot of beats. But I would end up going out there for songwriting camps. I met a lot of talented artists, and I just remember how quiet and peaceful it was. It's like They would have these things called spaceships, and they're sitting on like an incline of, uh, of like a mountaintop, and you could see the entirety of the horizon of like literally rock and plain.
Chris Barker:
Wow.
Kaelin Ellis:
And so to be able to like make music out there— I went one time and I remember like I had my laptop, my speakers, and I remember thinking like, man, this would be a dream to make music in this space. And so when I think about my dream location, it would be in Taos, New Mexico.
Chris Barker:
So are we in one of those spaceships maybe on the— on the—
Kaelin Ellis:
yeah, it will be a spaceship for sure.
Will Betts:
Yes.
Chris Barker:
Okay, we like New Mexico and spaceships, me and Will. Yeah, we're, uh, we're a big fan of that.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah. You guys are spaceship people?
Chris Barker:
Well, we can't give that away. Calling the spaceship—
Kaelin Ellis:
give it away.
Chris Barker:
Don't, don't You can't say that we're spaceship people. That is amazing though. So, and what's the vibe like inside? Is it spaceship-like inside, or do you want it kind of like, like low-key and loungy, or do you like it to be like a lab?
Kaelin Ellis:
I would like it to be like a— it's a little bit earthy, a lot of really warm clay rock tones. You'll see a lot of painted glass. A lot of painted glass. Uh, there was one that I remember staying in and that I envisioned. It's almost like if you were to remove furniture out of an entirely glass enclosure, right? And the glass enclosure has a door, and the door opens to a balcony where you can see past the horizon. So it's like as you're making music, you can look out and see the environment. Nice. Wow.
Chris Barker:
Nice.
Will Betts:
Yeah, yeah, I see it.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah. So it's, it's, it feels like you went in, like you're floating above the planet a little bit.
Chris Barker:
This is a strong start. This is a strong start, isn't it? Well, I like it.
Will Betts:
So you're, you're in a sort of a painted glass egg, basically.
Kaelin Ellis:
Exactly. Exactly.
Will Betts:
Okay. So I think it's the first time we've had one of those on the show. So, uh, yeah, well done.
Chris Barker:
Let's lock, let's lock that in.
Will Betts:
As someone who collaborates a lot, isn't that quite far away? To get all these people in. How do you make it work?
Kaelin Ellis:
So what's actually funny is I actually introduced a lot of friends of mine to New Mexico. The craziest thing that we ever did, it was 2023, and I remember I was just like, I need some inspiration. So me and like 3 of my buddies that also did the songwriting camps alongside a few friends of mine here in Florida decided to take a week-long trip and just rent a spaceship above the mountains, and there's a space called the Sandia Mountains specifically. We stayed out there for a week and just made beats looking above the whole horizon. It was insane.
Chris Barker:
And for our listeners, just some context visually, that's sort of Breaking Bad kind of areas, isn't it, around there?
Kaelin Ellis:
That's exactly where they filmed it.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, okay. That's what I had pictured in my head, and I just wanted to check that my British-American geography wasn't But Taos itself, it's not urban or suburban even, right?
Will Betts:
Because I'm seeing pictures of this, it's a UNESCO World Heritage Site, constantly inhabited for over 1,000 years. Like, it's— yeah, this is a really unusual place.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, it's where drummers go to roam free.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, yeah. So what's, what's crazy is there is a very well-known jazz pianist I know that has a space out there And, um, shucks, I'm, I'm really blanking on his name. And they did a whole interview in 1994, and it kind of correlated to jazz fusion in the '90s that like led to all these producers sampling these records. Dilla being one of them, J Dilla being one of the guys that he sampled. Dave Grusin.
Chris Barker:
Dave Grusin.
Kaelin Ellis:
Dave Grusin. Yeah, he— they did a whole interview about him and like his creative process. And I remember having like my own experience with New Mexico. I'm like, I feel weird being out here. But then he talked about, I have a house out here, and he's like one of the greatest jazz pianists like ever. So he must have experienced the same thing I experienced.
Chris Barker:
And did your love and interest in jazz come through learning the drums and that side, or was it from like backwards looking through hip-hop samples? Which way?
Kaelin Ellis:
So NBA Street was like my introduction to like blue note jazz. And I didn't know culture-wise they were referencing the Blue Note Jazz, like, history in hip-hop.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
And so the soundtrack, the video game, I'm actively playing it. And what's funny is having this, this dialogue with my friends after, like, after we grow up and stuff, and we're like, we got introduced to this young. Like, we got introduced to, like, Dave Grusin, we got introduced to, uh, Tom Scott.
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
Where today we got introduced to like jazz on a very minute scale as of playing video games.
Chris Barker:
But I think a lot of people— I mean, I can talk about getting introduced to funk through Daft Punk and funk through, you know, Biggie and things like that. It's like, it's going through the sample catalog. Once you get really interested, once you're reading liner notes, like you said, when you start going, who's making this? Where's this come from? And then you go, it leads you all the way back to these things that were you know, even before I was born, you know, and it's like, whoa, this is, this is, this is really old music, some of it. I love that journey. I love that about electronic music as well and sampling, that you kind of just keep going back and back and back through all of these little fragments.
Will Betts:
And on that point, like in your music, you reference a lot of older music. There's that Rock With You reference on Star on Vignette and the Rickroll on the— what's the track after it? Fools. How are you thinking about these references that you're making within your music? Is it like a sort of jazz context? Like, these are standards, or—
Kaelin Ellis:
I'll be honest, I've asked myself this question too, because sometimes I'll literally make something and it'll pop up, but then I have this, this theory, and my theory is everything is connected. Whether it's like in context of genre or how you hear it, whatever your experience is, there's probably something that matches to pull it off. And so I remember when we were working on those records with Count on Vignette, and we did Star, The project was obviously at that time 2020, and we were going back to like the '70s and—
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
The late '60s. And so when I was like working on all these ideas, we were all literally having— me and Count were having dialogues about like, what did they used to do back in the '70s? And he had the actual gear to record all the drums. And I'm like, if you're— if we're going to record like we're in the '70s, why not pull references from that and see who connects to it?
Will Betts:
So for people listening who don't know The Count, can you just tell us a little bit about him? Because he's got all sorts of gear, right?
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, so The Count is, is a producer from Canada. I met him through the pandemic online on Instagram.
Will Betts:
So you did that whole record remote?
Kaelin Ellis:
We didn't even meet in person until like a year and a half later.
Chris Barker:
Whoa.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah.
Will Betts:
Because the groove on that is crazy for people who haven't been in the same room.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, it's funny you mentioned this. So what's funny is when the pandemic started and we started making the beat videos.
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
There was a moment when I think we made like 3 ideas and they all were really, really good, but it was like we made the video, we didn't make a song, we just made the video. And then after like a weekend and some change, he's uploading stuff, I'm uploading stuff, we're collaborating together. I literally messaged him and I'm like, could you imagine if we just did this for the next 5 years? What, what could this do? I just texted her like, and then we hopped on FaceTime and talked, and we were like, yeah, bro, this is, this is fun. Let's just keep making more stuff together.
Will Betts:
Is that how that's all come about then? Like the, the sub-minute songs, and like there's that whole record that doesn't have a song over a minute 34. Is that where that, the whole concept came from?
Kaelin Ellis:
So the concept of the songs, they came from one, I have a habit a really, really funny habit of making short ideas. Like really, really short ideas. I'm talking about like I'll make a loop and then after 10 minutes I'll be like, all right, next one.
Will Betts:
Nice.
Kaelin Ellis:
And I've been doing that since I was in high school. So when the pandemic came around, I had all these short ideas that were just 35 seconds. And so I was like, why not just play piano on top of it? This is because people at the time were like, yo, you play piano pretty well, you should try something. And then that turned into like playing drums within 35 seconds or so. When I did it during the pandemic, The Count saw that I was doing it too, just like he was.
Will Betts:
Right.
Kaelin Ellis:
And that snowballed into this thing of like, how much can you cram into a minute? And so that was a challenge. It was like, create a full arrangement Like, throw everything in 35 seconds or less and see what kind of thing can come out of it.
Will Betts:
That seems wild to me, that that's even the format for the album, 'cause listening to them and not looking at the tracks passing, I don't get the sense that it's like, this is a completely unconnected idea from that idea. There is still a flow to it. How do you manage that over the course of an album?
Kaelin Ellis:
So, this— I think this in context goes back to video game culture. During— like, when you play video games, all the music kind of feel seamless, right? And so what we would do is— and I, I had— I have a habit now of whenever I create albums or projects and compiling together a listening experience, I'll throw every idea that I think was created in this certain time or makes sense for the concept, and I'll literally turn on a video game for 30 minutes, set a timer for 30 minutes, play the game, and if something doesn't sound like it matches well, I'll just— Throw it out. Mute it and then go to the next one. So it's a repeated listening process that lets me know when a— I'm not gonna have that. Oh, that's crazy. Yeah, I didn't think to do that.
Will Betts:
Presumably you turn the music off on the video game though.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I play everything on mute.
Will Betts:
Yeah, that's such a cool technique.
Chris Barker:
Make your own music, make your own soundtracks.
Kaelin Ellis:
If you have your own, might as well.
Will Betts:
Yeah, exactly.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, yeah, very cool.
Chris Barker:
That's a cool tip though. I think that's really cool, like putting your music in that context and seeing if it clicks. The Music Tech My Forever Studio podcast is supported by Audient, makers of the Horizon series of professional rackmount audio interfaces.
Will Betts:
Yes, the Thunderbolt 3 Horizon range is aimed at the professional studio market, comprising 3 interfaces: the Horizon 8P, Horizon 16, and Horizon 32.
Chris Barker:
5 years in the making, the range delivers 32-bit mastering-grade conversion, sub-millisecond round-trip latency, and a scaling Add units together and create up to a 200 in-and-out stack, all on a single macOS driver.
Will Betts:
Aimed at pro studios and audio professionals, that 0.99 millisecond round-trip latency at 192 kHz is fast enough to track through native plugins with no perceptible delay, no proprietary DSP chips, and no walled ecosystem to enable pro-level performance.
Chris Barker:
Plus, they look pretty slick too. The Horizon 8P 16 and 32 are will be available from September the 28th, priced from £2,199, €2,499, and $2,799.
Will Betts:
Visit audient.com for more information and to explore all the features of the Horizon Professional range.
Chris Barker:
Okay, so we have your first— it's your 3 items which you get for free. So we need a DAW, An audio interface, and a computer. Everybody gets these ones for free. So what are you choosing on those 3?
Kaelin Ellis:
So for the laptop, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go with a MacBook Pro. I'm gonna go with a nice, I'm gonna go with a nice like M2. I could do an M2 or M3, which one of you—
Chris Barker:
Come on, you can go for the maxed out.
Will Betts:
M5, surely.
Chris Barker:
M5.
Kaelin Ellis:
I got M5. You want me to M5 it? Okay, I can run it M5.
Chris Barker:
Come on, we upsell your dreams. That's right, we upsell dreams here.
Kaelin Ellis:
All right, we could— let's run an M5. I can run an M5. Um, I will choose for my DAW Ableton.
Chris Barker:
Okay.
Kaelin Ellis:
Um, if it wasn't the year 2026, I would have for sure said Sony Acid Music Studio.
Chris Barker:
Oh, okay. Well, I mean, you can have that. That's quite a, um, a story I hear a lot— people coming off like the PS1 games like Magix Music Maker or the DJ games and then doing Acid. Sony really tried to sort of make that transition happen. A lot of people did it. I think it still exists, doesn't it? Doesn't Acid?
Kaelin Ellis:
So, so Acid does still exist. So I had to do a lot of deep digging about this one. I was a Sony Creative Software kid.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Will Betts:
Uh, okay.
Kaelin Ellis:
I was— yeah, so like Sony Acid Music Studio, um, what was it, Sound Forge for sound designing. For Cinema Films, and then also Sony Vegas. I used all 3 of those. Those were hilariously enough, like, obviously bundle, but like, I had it as a kid. And so it was my introduction to video production, sound design, and the music production all at the same time.
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
And their community was purely just about innovating technology and using the software to create the most out of it. Now What made me switch over to what I now use with Ableton— Sony sold all of that. They got rid of the community, they got rid of the forums, how I learned how to make beats and program around like a DAW. They got rid of the community space that teaches it.
and I— that was literally what made music fun, was the fact that we were able to learn from the community and the community like, oh yeah.
Will Betts:
But I guess for you as well, like, you have your own Discord, right? And that— that— is that a big part of like how you create?
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, it honestly— if it wasn't for the Makers Club, I don't know how I'd be able to still do this. for this long. Because you know how people hear like, oh, I love this favorite new artist, I love boo-boo. My favorite producers are like in my community, and they're just regular, everyday. I go to work, I come here, I see you making a beat, and I want to make it too. This is cool. And they'll think of something I never would have thought. And yeah, it— that, that's, that's the aspect that makes me want to keep making it, you know, because I love it to be around other individuals that are just inspired.
Kaelin Ellis:
Love it.
Will Betts:
Okay, we'll chuck that link in the show notes as well. Nice.
Chris Barker:
So, we've got— we're locking in Ableton though.
Kaelin Ellis:
We're locking in Ableton.
Chris Barker:
Ableton, okay. And we've got the M5 upgrade and audio interface.
Kaelin Ellis:
Audio interface.
Chris Barker:
Dream Studio.
Kaelin Ellis:
I would say The Apollo X8.
Chris Barker:
X8, we're going X8.
Will Betts:
Okay, okay, not the X8P. Do you want the preamps or no?
Chris Barker:
X8P.
Kaelin Ellis:
Oh, with the preamps, man, throw the preamps on there, bro. Those preamps high-key saved a lot of sessions. They really did. Oh, really?
Chris Barker:
Yes.
Kaelin Ellis:
Oh man, I, I think it was, uh, right before the pandemic. I had, I had saved up enough money for a really solid Apollo And, uh, at the time I had like one just kind of travel-wise that I would travel with, but then a lot of the sessions I did were like on the Apollo. So that means the plugins, that means this, means that. And I remember being like, man, I gotta turn in a mix for this project. Um, I hit up all my homies. I'm like, is there any chance that you guys got—
Will Betts:
A mixer?
Kaelin Ellis:
an Apollo. And then one of my guys goes, let me make a call real quick. 2 minutes later, I get the call back. He goes, man, my bro owns like an Apollo rack. I was like, word? He's like, yeah, Apollo rack. And so I pull up to his crib and it's an X8. And I'm like, Mm-hmm. The X8? So wait, I need to track some live drums right now.
Kaelin Ellis:
This kid, he was like, yeah, absolutely. And so like, It got like the sounds in my drum packs, like in the first couple volumes, they're from the pres.
Chris Barker:
Nice.
Kaelin Ellis:
Of the Apollo X8.
Chris Barker:
I'm also enjoying the, uh, the space references here. We're in a spaceship, we've got an Apollo. Yes, yes, I'm very— I've got my fingers crossed for a Jupiter, uh, you know, all of these kind of things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, all space-based items, uh, for our New Mexico spaceship. Okay, well, we're locking the X8-P then.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah.
Will Betts:
All right, item number 1 then.
Chris Barker:
This is the first of your 6 items now. Item number 1.
Will Betts:
Yeah, yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
So my first item, I'm gonna say— it's gonna sound funny, but it's a DX7.
Chris Barker:
Okay, okay, okay.
Will Betts:
Yeah, nice.
Kaelin Ellis:
See, Yamaha DX7, because when I got introduced to FM synthesis, it was through another program called FM8.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
And I didn't know FM8's core program for FM synthesis was the DX7, and you can load DX7 presets into FM8. So yeah, I would look online, how do you— and they'd be like, oh, this is how you program like a regular piano patch, a regular like you know, bell patch, and I would see how the, the functions work. And so I would go take the, the FM8 presets and then go back to like the DX7 that my dad used to own, and I would try and reprogram it.
Chris Barker:
Okay, so you weren't just sending SysEx from FM8, you actually tried to program a DX7?
Kaelin Ellis:
I made— I may— I have my own like patch of FM synthesis that I can like run into.
Chris Barker:
I think that's you and Brian Eno. That's it. Yeah, he's managed to program a DX7.
Kaelin Ellis:
It takes a long time. Yeah.
Chris Barker:
Oh my God.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah.
Chris Barker:
I had the little DX100. Well, I didn't own it. Me and a friend shared it from the local college when we were kids, and we were like, we're going to make so many cool sounds. And you've got like this tiny little screen and oh my God, we I think my friend actually, uh, big shout out to Greg, I think he actually managed to, to program loads of cool sounds on it because he was— he had more patience than me.
Will Betts:
Could you still do it now?
Kaelin Ellis:
Could I still? Maybe, maybe I could.
Will Betts:
Would you? Because you don't sound enthused about having to do it.
Kaelin Ellis:
It's like, because I remember when I would try and like— because I remember the day I learned that those are the same, and I was one of those kids that was just adamant to do it. Yeah, you know. Yeah. And so I remember getting into the manual and learning, and I think at best I got like a, a good bell sound. Yeah, out of it, like a solid ding. And it wasn't long.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, nice.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, so I probably could if I sat down with it long enough.
Chris Barker:
But you, you said your dad had a DX7, right?
Kaelin Ellis:
He had a DX7 and, um, the one keyboard I actually have in my room. I might actually swap this The PSR-510 Dreamboard. That—
Chris Barker:
a Yamaha PSR? Does it have synthesis in it? It must have some FM synth in it.
Kaelin Ellis:
They— so what's cool about the Yamaha PSR-510, it's like a miniature portable studio unit.
Chris Barker:
Okay, yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
Oh, is this—
Will Betts:
do you think this is it? Am I gonna airhole you now?
Kaelin Ellis:
But here's the catch. Here's the catch. They don't let you produce a whole song in here. They give you all the songs and enough to make a small loop that doesn't stop, that doesn't, like, keep going. It'll be, like, enough for 10 seconds, and that's it.
Chris Barker:
OK.
Will Betts:
Sort of disappointing, isn't it?
Chris Barker:
This is a mad keyboard. I'm just having a look at it now.
Will Betts:
Are you choosing this? Is this gonna be one of your 6 items, Kaelin?
Chris Barker:
Are you serious?!
Will Betts:
That is a— that's some, uh, yeah.
Chris Barker:
So, for people listening that haven't Googled, this is kind of like the keyboard that I probably had in school, and maybe a lot of British kids might have had this kind of thing in school.
Kaelin Ellis:
Outside of just its own sounds, my dad, I watched him program some of the illest layers in church on this thing. And for maybe 10 years I have been trying to find this keyboard because there's— it has a particular sound to it.
Chris Barker:
Okay, okay, okay.
Kaelin Ellis:
And so even my next— my last couple singles and my, my next album has this, this board all in it.
Chris Barker:
So are we swapping out the DX7 for the PSR? Is that what's happening?
Kaelin Ellis:
Honestly? Honestly, I have a personal attachment to the 510, so yeah.
Chris Barker:
OK.
Kaelin Ellis:
I would take the board— I would take this board anywhere.
Will Betts:
Would you take your current one in the studio, or would you take your— You said it was your dad had one of these.
Kaelin Ellis:
He— I watched him make everything I've ever heard.
Chris Barker:
So is that your dad's one that you have?
Kaelin Ellis:
No, it was— So, I remember the day my dad slowly stopped working on music, it was because the board stopped functioning. And he sat for years opening up the hardware and soldering it back together to get the sound cards to work. And so when he would try and play it, it just started distorting. The chips went inside of it got really, really bad. And I was like, I saw my dad basically be like, nah, it ain't worth it no more. And he just stopped making music after that.
Chris Barker:
Oh my. Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
Wow.
Will Betts:
Oh yeah, that's a tragedy.
Kaelin Ellis:
So I was like, I was like, if I ever get a chance to get this board again, yeah, yeah, I know that would do something. Yeah, specifically for me creatively, and then also my dad. So I remember being able to get it for like $200 on like a, uh, uh, oh, is it like a Reverb or Guitar Center? Yeah, and I got it back, and I think like a year ago for his birthday, I was like You want to see something? And he's like, what? So I pulled up the demo and he's like, no way!
Chris Barker:
That is great. That is a great story. That's cool. And has he been teaching you some things on it then, I guess? Yeah, yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
He— the genuine name of the game, from what I learned outside of all plugins and all gear, is how are you using your layers? And so the machine allows you to layer 2 multiple, like, sounds together. And so if you're recording, you can obviously level things properly, you can get a certain sound out of it. Yeah, right.
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
And so I thought about, like, how he showed me with, like, guys like, um, a good example of this would— I would say, uh, Michael Jackson with, uh, Billie Jean, not knowing that half of the production on top of a live band is also FM synthesis.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
Or live synth playing. And so you pair that with real and you get this super thick, super rich sound.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
So yeah, I mean, I'm gonna go 5/10.
Chris Barker:
Yeah. Okay, lock in the 5/10. Okay, let's get on to item number 2.
Kaelin Ellis:
Item number 2, I will say would be something that's not in this room. Um, Korg Chaosillator.
Chris Barker:
Chaosillator?
Will Betts:
Interesting. Yeah, why the Chaosillator?
Kaelin Ellis:
So I was introduced to like Korg a little bit as middle school was, you know, production, music production online was like a certain way, and you would see the Korg Chaos Pad and everything. I say the Chaosillator simply because Majority of the sounds that gave me my identity, what I liked with hip-hop and electronic music, all sits inside this box.
Will Betts:
Mm.
Kaelin Ellis:
And so I would take it to school, and I had a little, a little like MP3 recorder, and I would aux in the recorder into the record— into the, the Chaoslator, and I would record small little demos. of like ideas I had throughout the day, right, back in like middle school. And so, uh, I know the first like 12 patches were like lead synths, the other ones were chords, but I would literally sit with like scales and see if I could play chord progressions on just a little XY axis pad.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
And so you have to be pretty accurate with that, right?
Will Betts:
That's, that's real sort of— you got to dial it in pretty carefully. Otherwise, that's not a chord.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah.
Will Betts:
That's not a chord you want, at least.
Kaelin Ellis:
Well, there's the— and this also might also add why I think about music the way I do. They had a scale in there that made it relatively easy to capture if you knew notes the proper way. So, they had a scale that went from completely chromatic— you could turn it off completely and go literally microtonal.
Chris Barker:
Oh, nice.
Kaelin Ellis:
If you wanted to. Yeah. And so I would sometimes play chord progressions and, like, hope to God after I captured it, go back home with it still on and try and plug it back into the Windows computer my mom had and just capture it.
Will Betts:
And did it— does it work out? I mean, did you capture some of these then?
Kaelin Ellis:
My first, my first, like, my first sample pack has, like, all of the original K-Oscillator stuff I would collect when I was in high school and middle school.
Will Betts:
Is that what all the sort of— because in some of your tracks you have this very sort of up-and-down bendy portamento sounds. That's all the K-Oscillator, is it?
Kaelin Ellis:
That's all of the K-Oscillator. Those came from moments where I was just going about my day, had some regular old degular headphones, and I'm like, this— I'm gonna make sure I keep the battery on for as long as I can for this. And I've lost a lot. I lost a lot of ideas along the way. The Chaoslator is more of a synth than like anything, and I think about how often I've programmed like my own kind of like stuff, and you could save presets or save like your ideas along the way as you mess with it. Um, yeah, yeah, I really—
Chris Barker:
I had the, I had the mini one, the mini KP, that's just like a pad and a dial.
Kaelin Ellis:
I always wanted it.
Chris Barker:
I used to love it. I used to love It's so fun though for— I literally just recently sold it, but it was so fun for like what you— well, what you've used it for, which is like that bendy and like horns and things, and actually jabbing at it percussively. It breaks you from the keyboard environment where you end up doing the same chords, the same hand shapes. And when you've got none of that, you've just got an XY pad, it forces you to like create different melodies, create accidents, and yeah, it's fun. I, yeah, yeah, I don't think, I don't think there's any new ones, is there? Korg, I don't know if you can still get them new. I think, I think they've sunset that product. I think it's secondhand only now, I think.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, when they made the app, they kind of, they kind of just like, yeah, you know. But I will, I will genuinely say like, that was— I was mostly a point-and-click person as a kid, and then when I started playing around with the Chaos later, it made me start to learn how to embody playing with sound.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, so, well, I suppose it's quite instinctive rhythmically for you as well, having that kind of pad in front of you as a drummer. That's kind of cool.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, yeah, it's probably— I'll probably say, as just per what that space would look like to have a spaceship and the Chaoslator alongside the 510. Yeah, and it— let alone you could make some insane soundscapes just with that alone. Yeah.
Will Betts:
So would you not be tempted to go up to like, I know you have this pretty impressive touch instrument at the moment. What is it? The EmbodMe? Is that the name of the company? This thing that's—
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah.
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
Oh, hold on.
Chris Barker:
I got you.
Will Betts:
I got you right here. For those listening, this is a— do you want to explain what it is, Calen?
Kaelin Ellis:
So this is a fully expressive controller looper. Right? This entire pad is a—
Will Betts:
It's like the size of a— it's like the size of a chopping board or something, right?
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, it's, it's about the size of a chopping board. I'd say roughly like it's a little bit bigger than the Ableton Push. It's a little bit bigger than the Push.
Will Betts:
Okay.
Kaelin Ellis:
Um, but I remember when I first learned about this, one of the biggest conversations I remember having just in general was like, I, I wish drum pads were a lot smaller or a little bit more portable. But the, the, the pad specifically, I remember learning about it at the NAMM.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
The NAMM convention like 2 years ago. And when I saw the, the setup, I was like, wait, obviously you can play multi-touch with it, but what threw me for a loop was that you can change the material base on it from rubber to cloth. So if you wanted to put your fingers on it, you could. If you want to play with mallets or sticks, you can do that too.
Chris Barker:
Oh, that's cool. That is cool.
Will Betts:
Yeah, because I was wondering when I was watching your videos, you're hitting it with the drumstick, and I was like, that, that doesn't look good. Like, what's— is that— is it gonna be okay? Like, and so you've changed the material in it, have you?
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, I just changed the material, and, uh, I run that as a secondary— this is gonna sound crazy— I run as a secondary controller to my Ableton Move. So the Move has a USB on the back of it. The Move is just the brain. I can, I can trigger whatever sound I want. Okay, that's amazing. Yeah, it's really smart. So intuitive thinking.
Will Betts:
Anyone who wants to see that, just go to your Instagram and, um, there's loads of videos on there. It's a great setup. Strong recommend.
Chris Barker:
It looks a lot cooler on Instagram than the, the white chopping board as well on our, on our webcam right now. That's when it's all— because it lights up and stuff as well, right? It looks very dope when it's all like lit up. Where are we at then? Item number 3. Is item number 3 going to be that pad?
Kaelin Ellis:
I mean, honestly, I might as well. I might as well, because if not, it was gonna be, um, it was gonna be a 14x6 Orange County Sunburst snare.
Chris Barker:
Okay, well, that could be item number 4 if you want to go on. Should we move on to item number 4? Do you want to lock in the, uh, the magical pad?
Kaelin Ellis:
Let's lock in the magical pad. Yeah, I'll put that snare as the next one because those, those kind of simultaneously go hand in hand, um, in tandem.
Chris Barker:
You got to tell us what's special about this snare then, when you first heard it, or why, why you want it in the Forever Studio.
Kaelin Ellis:
So going back to the New Mexico thing, um, I remember going to, uh, the store, uh, out there. I think it was like a, uh, it wasn't a regular music store, it was like a random, random one. And one, I love one, something that sounds great but also looks great too.
Chris Barker:
Mm-hmm.
Kaelin Ellis:
I got I got a chance to see different designs of snare drums. Growing up as a kid, going and playing different churches, you get like the lowest of the low when it comes to how something looks, right?
Will Betts:
Right. Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
Like how it looks, you just know you gotta make it sound good.
Will Betts:
Uh-huh.
Kaelin Ellis:
And so as a kid, I used to be like, I would love a snare drum that would look just as dope as it like sounds. And I remember coming across, uh, I'm blanking on— I'm blanking on his name, but there was a drummer years ago, uh, he used to play for a well-known band. I think it might have been Slipknot.
Chris Barker:
Okay, yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
And, and he had a thick 14 by 6 black maple, and I just remember the first time I saw and heard something that looked like I would buy this, great. But I was thinking like, it had his name on it though. It was— that was his snare drum. And I was like, man, I would love a snare drum that's mine.
Will Betts:
So that was the Joey Jordison— that's the Pearl Joey Jordison signature drum, right? You're talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
And so when I went to this music store in New Mexico, they had this Orange County line Like, just all the Orange County stuff. And what's funny about Orange County is Orange County doesn't have their own website, but I resonate with Orange County because I'm in Florida, Central Florida, Orange County, and Orange County references California.
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
But I'm seeing this in New Mexico, and I remember, I remember, uh, one of the sound guys was like, he was like, what are you looking for? I'm like, I'm looking for a nice snare. He's like, Well, what are you thinking about doing? So he showed me these snare drums that are like $700 to $800, boom, boom, boom. But then he's like, all right, so you want that snare? And it looked nice, but he's like, how much you could bet I can make that snare that looks better than this one sound better than that one? And I was like, that's a tall task.
Will Betts:
Mm-hmm.
Kaelin Ellis:
And so he grabs a drum key, he hits it a few times, and he puts a tuner on it. tunes it, tunes it, tunes it, tunes it, tunes it, tunes it, tunes it, flips it around, tunes it, tunes it, tunes it, tunes it, tunes it, tunes it, flips it back up, and he's like, play it. Bop! I lost it. I was like, I need that sound in that snare. And I remember when I bought it, I took it everywhere. I played on every kind of song you could think of. I played on a bluegrass record with this snare. I played on a hip-hop record with this snare.
Kaelin Ellis:
It was the most diverse tuning of a snare drum setup that I'd ever used.
Chris Barker:
So did, so did that, that assistant show you how to tune differently, or was— what was this?
Kaelin Ellis:
Yes.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, okay, the new technique.
Kaelin Ellis:
That was the introduction to He gave me like the thing was like, it's a matter of your imagination. That was probably the biggest thing.
Chris Barker:
It sounds like an '80s movie where that music shop was haunted and that was like the ghost, some kind of— and then you realize that actually the shop wasn't even there anymore when you went back the next day.
Kaelin Ellis:
It was one of those old ones. Like, it felt like a Wild West, like, kind of setup.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, they're much older.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah.
Chris Barker:
And it doesn't exist anymore. And they're like, you go there now and it's a coffee shop. And you were like, well, I bought a snare drum from here yesterday. This has been a coffee shop for the last 60 years.
Kaelin Ellis:
It might not be— it might not actually be too far from the Sandia Mountains. So if anybody were to be out there, it might— you might come across it. It's just, yeah, just people in there with supreme knowledge of understanding how to tune the instrument very well.
Will Betts:
So, so is there like— is there a secret to it that you can share?
Kaelin Ellis:
I mean, so I would probably say this: tuning a snare drum is fairly simple. It's fairly like— it's like tuning a guitar. But the funny part about the parts around the snare, yeah, there should be a consistency in how they're all tuned.
Chris Barker:
When you're tapping near each tuning knob on the actual snare, you're looking for the same ring on every part.
Kaelin Ellis:
You're looking for the same ring.
Will Betts:
Okay.
Kaelin Ellis:
Because you'll, you'll hear, you'll literally go around to different parts and be like, oh, that's a little too sharp, this is a little too flat. Uh, no, as long as there's a balanced level amongst it all, you can, you can shape it. I used to think a sound was one sound. No, it's a harmonic amongst all of it. Yeah, all of the things.
Chris Barker:
It's your layers again. It's your layers again.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, absolutely.
Chris Barker:
And does that tuning technique refer to the, the underneath as well. I guess it's not a hollow bottom snare, right?
Kaelin Ellis:
No, you, you have a Remo resonant on the bottom. On the top you actually have a— what's that, what's that classic dot? It's the old classic dot that Remo used to have on the drum heads.
Chris Barker:
Yes, yeah, I know what you mean. I can't remember the name of it right now.
Kaelin Ellis:
I'm talking about the old school.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, black, those black dot on—
Will Betts:
yeah, yeah, yeah, that controlled sound clear black dot.
Kaelin Ellis:
That one? Yeah, the clear black dot one. Yeah, that controlled sound. Yeah, that setup. And that was actually the, the, the thing, because what I needed at the time was something clear. I needed something clear that could be like a nice pop. One, it would translate in the studio, and it also translates live. Yeah. And I found that that same setup, no matter where I went, cut through everything.
Kaelin Ellis:
And so my sound is kind of like referencing back to that point when I'm Learn about that snare sound.
Chris Barker:
So I guess your sample packs and your recordings, that's the snare?
Kaelin Ellis:
The true sound of my snare is this most recent sound pack I have called The Pocket. And The Pocket, long story short, is a giant folder full of drum loops that I recorded individually creating drum loop patterns. So if, let's say, if I wanted to create a drum loop pattern, I recorded like 10 grooves at 12 different BPMs. All those individual BPMs have that sound, and it's also an idea generator too.
Chris Barker:
Okay, okay, yeah, yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
I'm, I've, I'm never not without that sound in everything I make.
Chris Barker:
Ace. So we've locked that, we're locking that in on, on number 4.
Will Betts:
On the topic of pockets though, that's not— that's a difficult sentence to say.
Chris Barker:
The topic of pocket?
Will Betts:
The topic. Yeah, it feels like it. Exactly, exactly. Um, can you tell us a bit about how you get better at playing pockets?
Kaelin Ellis:
So I'm gonna try and answer this as best as I can. So with pocket, when I learned about pocket was in church. It used to be a very simple approach to pocket. Pocket, in other words, you're not too busy, but you're also not too bland at the same time.
Will Betts:
Mm-hmm.
Kaelin Ellis:
You want to find yourself somewhere in the middle.
Chris Barker:
The Goldilocks.
Kaelin Ellis:
Goldilocks. You have a perfectly fit pocket that can hold a wallet. The whole point of a pocket is to hold what is moving in place. and it does not move. Now, how do we get there? One of the things that helped me learn how to do this is I would simply jam along to my favorite pockets. Let's say if I learned— here's a good, here's a good record, one just comes to my mind, um, uh, You Got Me with The Roots and Erykah Badu. Questlove is playing the pocket on that joint. And so what I would do is I would play that loop to the pocket.
Kaelin Ellis:
I would play along with it, so much so that I would play it, hear it back. I jam on it for a good solid 20 to 30 minutes. If I'm really OD, I used to really go for an hour just playing, see all the different possibilities I can whittle in with playing. this pocket. And the moment that I got it, I would turn off the track and I would just turn on a click, and I'll play that same pocket to the click and see how many other different types of correlations can I make with this same drum break in other contexts. Can I play it to other things? If you could play it to other things, then you probably got something really, really strong as a pocket. And I think that's hard to teach without actually having A physical piece of wood.
Chris Barker:
Right, yeah, holding up a drumstick.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, holding up a drumstick. So the, the many hours of holding— even this alone, holding it the right way to even get the sound matters so much. I've seen, I've seen, uh, Questlove like have like a really, you know, loose feel, but it's funny because the way he's holding it creates the feeling. But then I'll also see really technical drummers, like, uh, someone who's really technical that I, I love watching play is Nate Smith.
Chris Barker:
Yep.
Kaelin Ellis:
And boy, when he gets locked in, he is in it just like this. So this is more like the— more of the, the jazz-oriented musicians.
Chris Barker:
Yeah. So when you're recording, do you ever program?
Kaelin Ellis:
Drums? Uh, I only program the basis of what I want to play. So like, let's say for instance I have like certain patterns that I want to hit. So let's say I want to play, I don't know, like, uh, let's just say the syncopation is dot dot dot dot dot dot. Now I can just— if you hear that same syncopation, I need to hit those hits. Anywhere I go from that point on is not—
Chris Barker:
Okay, okay, yeah, I get you, I get you. So it's kind of like building your own click track in a weird way, like building your own click track based on what you're trying to hit.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's how, that's how the expression of the, the instrument For not only just a drummer, but like a bass player will hear bop bop bop.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
Bop bop bop. And then the guitars will be like, bink bink bink, binky bink, bink. And that's how they used to do it in like the '70s funk records. That's how they used to do it in the '80s with Boogie.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
Like, they're playing with the syncopation and just running with it. That's— that is the wallet that sits inside of a pocket.
Chris Barker:
So you've got 5 and 6 left before we give you a little rundown.
Kaelin Ellis:
What are you thinking? Okay, so part of me wants to say a Fender Rhodes.
Will Betts:
Say it.
Kaelin Ellis:
But I'll— okay, is it bad that I want an upright?
Will Betts:
Not at all. No, just an upright piano.
Kaelin Ellis:
I want a— I want a Kawai. A Kawai.
Chris Barker:
Yes, Upright.
Kaelin Ellis:
Nice.
Will Betts:
Why Upright? And why Akawai?
Kaelin Ellis:
I, I will say that like my experience of understanding like how sounds sound in a room, I think especially in like a spaceship, how it would translate into space. Obviously too, I think about when I'm not able to plug something in direct. If I'm not, not able to plug in something technology-wise I need something outside of like a regular drum to give me something.
Will Betts:
Something acoustic.
Kaelin Ellis:
So some— something acoustic. And some of my— oh, this is a funny story to say. I, I think I was in, uh, I was in Austin, Texas for a show. I had to play a festival called Euphoria Fest back in 2022, and I had my dad come along. And while I was there they had this green room that had an upright piano. Now, at the time, I had only been like using VST plugins to like get an authentic piano sound. So—
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
While my dad was sitting there and I saw this piano, I was like, let me just see how it sounds. And I remember the way it sounded, like the character of the sound made it feel like I was not in 2022. in this back room. It felt like it was somebody's, like, family member's piano, and it had like this real rickety thing on it. And obviously to everybody else, that'd be like a really, ugh, like, why does it sound like that? But like, I love that the detuned nature of it, of, of how it sounds, translated to the room. Because the moment I started playing chords, it was like, oh, that's, that's crazy.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
And so I, I had 45 minutes before I had to go play the show, and I took that moment to record every sound off of that piano onto my iPhone, and I named the instrument Memo Piano.
Chris Barker:
Nice.
Will Betts:
Nice. And can you, can you still get this now?
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah.
Will Betts:
Do you sell this as a pack then, Memo Piano?
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
And so there was one piano that I got a chance to do for Memo Piano 2, because the first one was just kind of like, let me just see what, what this sounds like. But then I was— I wanted to get more into like the dynamics, so I recorded another piano that I came across in my travels, which was a Kawai used, like '60s upright. And whoever tuned this thing knew what they were doing. They like— everything was just— It was perfect. And so I had the upright and I recorded soft and hard dynamics for what took maybe 2 hours.
Will Betts:
Mm-hmm.
Kaelin Ellis:
And so—
Will Betts:
Played manually by you?
Kaelin Ellis:
Just played manually, yeah.
Will Betts:
Hard, soft.
Chris Barker:
OK, great.
Kaelin Ellis:
So, doo, doo. And I did that for every single note for the piano. And so the downside is that was a piano I'd I didn't think I'd ever see again. And, uh, if I could, if I could ever have like an upright in, in a dream studio, it'd be a Kawai.
Chris Barker:
Yes.
Kaelin Ellis:
A wooden—
Chris Barker:
yeah. And we've all learned the lesson now that if you come around, if you're around our house, you might start sampling stuff.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, I actually have an attachment on my iPhone where I can like record like sounds in, in like, like, uh, what's the name of the— it's like an XY Uh, Axis.
Will Betts:
Yes.
Chris Barker:
iXYL.
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
Was that the Rode attachment?
Chris Barker:
So you're round somebody's house for a dinner party and you say, I'm just gonna use the bathroom, but secretly you're going round sampling their pianos.
Kaelin Ellis:
I love it.
Chris Barker:
I love it.
Kaelin Ellis:
In the cutlery drawer. There've been moments where, like, I'll literally go— like, right before anything transpires, I'll go, there's a possibility I could hear something. Can I just press record? And they're like, yeah, sure! So I'll let my phone just sit there. Maybe 20 minutes will go by, And I'm like, yo, that was crazy. And then I'll like go to my phone like, I recorded it. Nice.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, that's, that's cool though.
Kaelin Ellis:
That's cool.
Chris Barker:
That's, that's finding— that's the real deal of sampling, isn't it? It's like, I always, I always find it funny when there's like some sample packs that are just like nature or whatever. It's like, everybody's got a phone, they can go and record nature themselves. It's like, yeah, it has to be quite unique. Or very highly recorded to like, you know, go out and buy the sounds of the forest when you could just go to a forest with your phone.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, so might I ask, do you guys ever do field recording?
Chris Barker:
Uh, no, I get— I buy sample packs.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah.
Will Betts:
I've done a little bit, not, not masses. So is this a big part of you, of your approach? Do you like to use field recordings as well?
Kaelin Ellis:
Absolutely. I, uh, that kind of comes from, um, Aphex Twin. A lot of Aphex Twin records, a lot of like, uh, I'm blanking on the other guy's name, how to like say it properly, but you— it's like a crazy looking U, Z-I-Q.
Chris Barker:
Okay.
Kaelin Ellis:
He's another producer that I learned uses field recordings in his, in his music. And as well, um, another one that worked with him was Wagenknecht. So Wagenknecht, obviously.
Chris Barker:
We had, um, we had Matthew Herbert, wasn't it, on the podcast? And he had a really interesting thing about capturing the energy of something, even if you only use a fragment of it. It's like he, he had a really great moment on it where it was, if you imagine a photograph of somebody jumping in the air or, you know, about to do a slam dunk, you can feel the energy before and after that photograph. And it's the same with sound. It's like you're capturing all of it, even if you only use a fragment of it, because, you know, we're aware of it. I'm probably very much misquoting how brilliantly he put it. So check out the podcast, but it was great, wasn't it, Will?
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah.
Chris Barker:
That idea of sampling those things. And then even if you end up twisting it into something completely different than the original, you've sort of captured all of that energy and that Purpose.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, I, I, I, I have an analogy when it comes to like capturing space. Um, everything regarding all types of technology deals around capturing and preserving, even to the music that we're making, to the tools. We're, we're trying to preserve something for what that time meant specifically to us, or might be for other people. and sharing it. Preserve, share, preserve, share.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
Everything about music is preserve, share. So I think about collecting the pockets, collecting ideas, recording the moment that something happened in a room. That is all part of preservation. So when someone 20 years from now is trying to learn, how did my favorite song get that sound, it's because they preserved something in the recording. That's why they talk about like the integrity of the recording. What did you preserve? Yeah, that's really good.
Chris Barker:
That's a really good way to put it. So we're on item number 6 now, and I would like to point out at this point you don't have any speakers or headphones or a microphone or a microphone to record anything.
Kaelin Ellis:
So I realized, I realized within picking the drum with the speakers and not having a microphone would do.
Chris Barker:
Uh, so, hmm, something's got to go, or you're gonna—
Kaelin Ellis:
something does have to go, or you're gonna have to go without a microphone. I could go without— I could actually go without the— I could go without the drum pad.
Will Betts:
Okay.
Chris Barker:
Oh, okay.
Will Betts:
The EmbodMe ERA-2 is going.
Chris Barker:
It's going, it's going.
Will Betts:
Yeah. All right, what are you gonna replace it with though?
Kaelin Ellis:
I'm gonna replace that with a— I'm gonna replace it with a TLM 103.
Chris Barker:
Okay, microphone. Okay, here we go.
Will Betts:
Do you not want something more than a TLM, or are you happy with the TLM?
Kaelin Ellis:
So I would say I'm happy with the TLM, but I think I would take a TLM and swap out the capsule. Okay, I would— because I— so like I remember hanging out with a few engineers where they said what they would do is they would buy the mic but then swap out the parts for the actual microphone they wanna have it to sound like. One person who does this is, uh, uh, Mixed by Ali. All of his—
Will Betts:
Oh yeah, yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
Are exactly that. And I remember he had like, he had like a TLM Like, the big one. And I was like, how are you getting that microphone to sound better than the one I have at home? And he was like, oh, they changed all the parts. He swapped all the parts, and he has it running through a preamp.
Chris Barker:
Frankensteined mics. I like it.
Will Betts:
So, it's like being like, why is your Kia so much faster than mine? It's like, it's got a Porsche engine in it. It's not the same thing at all.
Kaelin Ellis:
That's why. Exactly. The day that I discovered that they had the same parts, it's like a matter of like face front and tone. What are you really searching for? You searching for tone. And I think more so than anything, I search for tone all the way. Tone over everything. And I know, I know with that one microphone, because of my, my buddy in college, he would mic everything.
Will Betts:
Mm-hmm.
Kaelin Ellis:
With that TLM. He would mic like Whether I was on the kit, whether recording a vocal, whether recording a choir, whether we needed to like create a fake choir and re-mic what we just recorded. Ah, dude, I've watched a lot of creativity come off of that one mic, bro.
Chris Barker:
So we're locking it in, we're locking in the 103 but upgraded, modded.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say modded and upgraded.
Chris Barker:
Okay, nice.
Will Betts:
Okay, okay.
Chris Barker:
And then, so then that leaves us one item left for the 6th item is now some speakers, I guess. Speakers, headphones, or headphones, or headphones.
Kaelin Ellis:
Um, because we're in a spaceship and it's big, someone's gonna be like, someone's gonna come over and be like, hey, yeah, what you working on? Yeah, okay, so I got, I gotta go with monitors. I could go in the other room and listen to it on a small little iPhone.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, true. Yeah, so what's your monitor of choice, or Have you heard some monitors in another studio that you want to steal, or another producer's setup? Oh, the eyes just went wide when you thought about stealing monitors from another producer.
Kaelin Ellis:
I'm, I'm not gonna say that I thought about it, but I do know someone who like mentioned these one setup monitors, but they are these massive studio monitors, and I'm talking about like the big, like the big ones that hang on the side of the studio rooms.
Will Betts:
Oh yeah. Uh-huh.
Kaelin Ellis:
So I'm not gonna say any names. Okay, come on. But I'm more so names of like the people I was with.
Chris Barker:
Okay.
Will Betts:
Okay.
Kaelin Ellis:
Those individuals, we were all having a dialogue about monitors, like the big monitors. And so in NAMM, I'm sure you guys have—
Chris Barker:
Yep.
Will Betts:
Yeah. Very familiar. Been a few times.
Kaelin Ellis:
There's this... Yeah, it was last year. And I'll never forget... We got to, like, the wholesale side of NAMM.
Chris Barker:
Mmhmm.
Kaelin Ellis:
And I've always been very iffy about NAMM, but also, like, the wholesale is always a little funny. You might find something you've never seen.
Will Betts:
The downstairs bit, where it's the suppliers.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yes.
Will Betts:
Like the parts suppliers.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah. It's so— matter of fact, I'll say the names. There's 2 other individuals, Beats by Jay Black and O Gosh, Leotis, and me. We were all just like trying to find just something we haven't seen. And we come across this guy who is selling the wholesale version. And we were kind of like, at first we were like, nah, let's, let's, let's like play around and see if we can like play our music. But the dude was really adamant. Though.
Kaelin Ellis:
He was really adamant. And so I remember I was like, can we play our music on these speakers and see how they sound? He's like, yeah, sure. And so he hooks it up, plugs it in, and he just has it sitting on, on the floor, just on the floor. We play one beat and dude— and we were like, holy And he was like, a lot of the people that work for the other companies go to me to make the thing, and we make the thing.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, it's like white label, like OEM kind of. Yeah.
Kaelin Ellis:
And so, and so when he mentioned that, Jay looked at me and he was like, these look really familiar, hold on. And so he pulls up his buddy's studio and he's like, are these it? And he's like, yeah. He's like, no way!
Chris Barker:
Okay, so sorry, I was gonna say, so these are the ones you want basically as the item number 6? You want this guy to stack his kit in your studio?
Kaelin Ellis:
Absolutely. That, that inside of a spaceship in the middle of nowhere would just look and sound amazing.
Chris Barker:
So as an unusual choice and hard to describe, but we're going for A backroom of NAMM OEM speaker builder kitting out your spaceship as your 6th item.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah.
Chris Barker:
Well, I guarantee you we've never had that before, so that is—
Will Betts:
Never had that, no.
Chris Barker:
Who wouldn't want to go custom if you had the choice?
Kaelin Ellis:
Custom in a spaceship.
Chris Barker:
Exactly.
Will Betts:
It's the only way for a spaceship, really.
Chris Barker:
On that note, let's, um, let's get Will to do a little roundup of what you've chosen so far, set the scene, and while you're listening to this, have a think about what you want your luxury item to be. It can't be a bit of equipment, it's not studio kit, it's something else. Okay, so Will, take it away. Let's hear the studio.
Will Betts:
We're in Taos, New Mexico, in a spaceship. Inside, it's earthy, there's warm clay rock tones, painted glass. You've got a balcony that overlooks the mountains. Your 3 free items, you've chosen a MacBook Pro M5, 16-inch is what I've given you just because we're maxing it out, but if you want to go more portable, that's fine. What do you think? 16, 14, either way? Just nodding. I like it. Okay. Interface.
Will Betts:
Okay, 16. Your interface is Universal Audio Apollo 8XP. Your DAW is Ableton Live Suite 12. For your first item, you have chosen a Yamaha PSR-510 keyboard. For your second item, we have the Korg K-Oscillator with some good batteries so you don't lose anything, an endless supply of forever batteries.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah.
Will Betts:
Item number 3, you chose the Neumann TLM 103 with a modded capsule. Item number 4 was an Orange County Sunburst snare and no other parts of a drum kit, which is a wild choice, but we're here for it. Item number 5, You have the Kawai upright piano that you used to record Memo Piano 2, and your final choice is a pair of unnamed custom OEM speakers, giant speakers specifically designed and tuned for your spaceship studio.
Chris Barker:
By a guy around the back of NAMM.
Will Betts:
How does that work? How does that work, Kaelin?
Chris Barker:
Sound good?
Kaelin Ellis:
Absolutely. I, I honestly, I think energetically-wise, there's so much of like capturing the stories of just travel. Yeah, like the journey of the travel. And I think about if that all landed in the space. Yeah, New Mexico. I, I would 100% guarantee you some of the most coolest music will come out of that.
Chris Barker:
It has to. It has to, with all those stories and all of that emotion and those energies in those devices for sure. So there's one more bit of energy to add to that studio, and that's your non-studio-related luxury item. So what's it going to be?
Kaelin Ellis:
I don't know why this is coming to my mind, but you guys could look this up. There's a giant statue that sits in front of a venue called Meow Wolf in Santa Fe. I would just simply take A statue.
Chris Barker:
Will, Will is smiling a lot on the camera here. So this—
Will Betts:
Okay, so this is a, a bright red robot sculpture made by a sculptor called Christian Ristau. I don't know, how tall is this thing? I can't get a sense of it.
Kaelin Ellis:
It look— it's maybe a solid 15, 20 feet. Yes, this is good.
Will Betts:
This— so this looks like For this, just to give a sense of this, it's a bit like the robot from The Day the Earth Stood Still, but in bright red, and it's got a robot claw for a hand yoinking a cable out of a hole in its head. It's, uh, what?
Kaelin Ellis:
Why? So when I think about the first time I went to that venue and I saw that robot— oh, okay, for one I didn't, I didn't know this type of thing exists, but I remember when I stepped into the space, something about looking at that threw all of my guard out of the window and just made me think like, this is about to be the wildest experience ever. And immediately what followed was the rest of my career.
Chris Barker:
Ah, that's nice.
Kaelin Ellis:
Wow. Yeah, a lot of self-discovery and a lot of— I would put that, that statue like right at the entrance before people even get into the building. That way it's like a, you can now drop your shoulders, let your guard down. Like, cool, I just saw the craziest thing outside, now I'm about to go inside and make the craziest stuff ever in a spaceship.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, it stops people taking the creative process too seriously before they've even stepped in the room. That's nice. Like, yeah, yeah, lovely.
Will Betts:
Well, that's beautiful.
Chris Barker:
Like, once again, one of the most original choices that we've had on What are we on, 8 series now of this podcast? So yeah, congratulations for that. Well, that's, that's your forever studio. There it is in New Mexico. And all that's left to say is just thank you so much, Kaelin Ellis, for joining us on the My Forever Studio podcast.
Kaelin Ellis:
Thank you, Kaelin.
Chris Barker:
Well, what a studio from Kaelin there. I didn't expect a Korg Chaosillator to appear.
Will Betts:
I have to say, it's been a while, hasn't it? I also personally wasn't expecting a 20-foot robot outside, but there we go.
Kaelin Ellis:
Yeah.
Chris Barker:
Always throws up the surprises, the My Forever Studio.
Will Betts:
Sure does.
Chris Barker:
Well, all that's left to say is thank you for tuning in and join us next time for more adventures into Studio Foreverdom. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.