Emma-Jean Thackray is an award-winning artist, songwriter, arranger, and producer who fuses jazz, soul and electronic elements into her brilliantly vibey and heartfelt music. Off the back of her incredible new self-produced record, ‘Weirdo’, we talk about getting into jazz by mistake, her early arrangement experiments with her brass band, and we navigate building her analogue-heavy forever studio. In this hilarious episode, learn how she goes about cultivating her taste, why she’s not upgrading to Logic 11, and how method acting techniques can improve your recordings.
Emma-Jean Thackray is an award-winning artist, songwriter, arranger, and producer who fuses jazz, soul and electronic elements into her brilliantly vibey and heartfelt music. Off the back of her incredible new self-produced record, ‘Weirdo’, we talk about getting into jazz by mistake, her early arrangement experiments with her brass band, and we navigate building her analogue-heavy forever studio.
In this hilarious episode, learn how she goes about cultivating her taste, why she’s not upgrading to Logic 11, and how method acting techniques can improve your recordings.
Season 7 of the My Forever Studio Podcast is supported by Audient, and the incredible new iD48 audio interface.
https://audient.com/
https://audient.com/products/audio-interfaces/id48/overview/
https://musictech.com/
https://tyxstudios.com/
STUFF WE TALK ABOUT (SPOILERS AHEAD)
https://musictech.com/news/music/emma-jean-thackray-gear-creativity/
https://ejthackray.bandcamp.com/album/weirdo
https://www.telefunken-elektroakustik.com/product/ela-m-251e/
https://coleselectroacoustics.com/4038-studio-ribbon-microphone/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carla_Bley
https://www.roland.com/nz/products/sp-404mk2/
https://reverb.com/uk/p/studer-a800-mk-iii-2-24-track-analog-multitrack-tape-machine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Kaye
https://uk.fender.com/collections/electric-basses-precision-bass
https://reverb.com/uk/p/fender-rhodes-suitcase-piano-73-key-electric-piano
https://www.neumann.com/en-gb/products/microphones/u-67-set
https://aearibbonmics.com/products/r44-series/
https://www.ams-neve.com/outboard/1073-range/1073-mic-preamp-equaliser/
https://www.ams-neve.com/introducing-the-1073spx-d/
https://www.genelec.com/theones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Lacy
Chris Barker:
Hello, I'm Chris Barker.
Will Betts:
And I'm Will Betts and this is the Music Tech My Forever Studio podcast brought to you in partnership with Audient. And we're coming to you this time from TYX Studios in London.
Chris Barker:
In this podcast, we speak with musicians, DJs, engineers and producers about their fantasy Forever studio.
Will Betts:
The Fantasyland studio that our guests dream up is one that they must live with for the rest of time. But even in the world of studio foreverdom, we have a few rules.
Chris Barker:
Yes, the rules. Our guests will select a computer, a DAW and an audio interface. Those are of the three items we let everybody choose. Then our guests will choose just six other bits of studio gear, plus one non studio related luxury item.
Will Betts:
But Chris.
Chris Barker:
Oh yes.
Will Betts:
No bundles.
Chris Barker:
That's it. No bundles.
Will Betts:
Choosing something sold as a package of separate software or hardware as a single item is not permitted.
Chris Barker:
Our guest this time is a hugely talented writer, producer and artist who recorded her entire last album, Weirdo, from start to finish in her flat in London.
Will Betts:
Yes, a multi talented, multi instrumentalist, our guest blends jazz, soul and elegance electronic elements and won Jazz FM's Album of the year with her full length debut, Yellow.
Chris Barker:
Indeed. But she recently told music tech that gear means nothing without the creativity behind it. So we're keen to see what that means for the fantasy studio that we are.
Will Betts:
This is My Forever Studio with Emma Jean Thackeray. Welcome, Emma.
Chris Barker:
Welcome.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Will Betts:
It's a pleasure to have you on.
Chris Barker:
Absolute pleasure.
Will Betts:
Some of the interviews you've given have been not gear forward, shall we say? Gear very much takes a back seat.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
It definitely takes a backseat, but it's still important, you know, it's not like I'm sat in a bare room with just one candle and expecting everything to come out, you know, just me then. I'm not Rick Rubin.
Chris Barker:
I'm not Rick Rubin.
Will Betts:
Okay.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
He's got much better beards.
Chris Barker:
Yeah. But like Will said, I think I read in one interview as well where you're saying that gear sort of took a back seat not just because of your musical ability, but and the forward focus of that. But because obviously, like most artists at the start of their career, there's just not the option to have loads and loads of high end gear or fancy gear even.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Just compared to how I made Yellow, where most of it was made on like a 4 gigabyte of RAM crappy MacBook that was already about 10 years old and literally as soon as I sent off the pre masters, it conked out and never turned on again. So I got the most juice out of it.
Chris Barker:
I'm done. Just like, oh, God, so much jazz.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, it's. You know, I think you can do something great with just like, you know, an SM58 and see what happens. You can also be in the world's best studio and have nothing to say. So I think it's about finding a balance and. And now, you know, I do have the money to buy lots of dream stuff, and I still don't really want to, but I think some of that also is just like, my kind of poor northern roots being like, stop spending money. You don't need it. Like, my dad in my ear at all times, how much. I remember one time I brought home a CD as a teenager and he's like, there's only four tracks on this.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
You need to get your money back.
Chris Barker:
Yes, Yorkshire dad, I can relate.
Will Betts:
What was the cd?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
It was Love Supreme. Uncle Train is like, only four tracks. They've cheated you, love. Take it back to hmv.
Will Betts:
More notes, though. More notes. Thank you. Four track of that era, I suppose.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah. I think too many notes for him. Once I played with him, he was like, oh, all right, turn that off.
Will Betts:
So jazz didn't come from your family, then? This was not something that. No. This was you independently, was it?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, I actually fell into jazz accidentally because I was doing a lot of, like, orchestral playing and brass band playing, and there's this kind of ubiquitous solo that all cornet flugel players play, which is Concerto Durango, which is. It's actually a concerto by Rodriguez, but it's been adapted for brass band. And I was being a naughty girl, downloading it on LimeWire. And I downloaded the Miles Davis version. I mean, I was 13, so I think you can forgive me. And I just. Who's this Miles Davis guy? He's incredible. And then I found a bunch of other things and thought that I discovered him as a, you know, an insufferable teenager.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I was like, you all need to hear about this Miles Davis guy. You probably wouldn't have heard of him. But, yeah, and then from there, it just sort of expanded. I was like, going to HMV and going to the jazz bin or the bargain bin and being like, oh, I recognize that name from this record. And it all felt really organic and honest, just kind of like finding my way through stuff. But, yeah, my family are not really into jazz. Even this new record, my mum was like, are there going to be any, like, songs on it? Yeah, sure. Okay, good.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I might listen there. They're not into Jessica.
Chris Barker:
I'M not trying to be pro piracy here, but that story is quite. Here quite often about being out, like, discovering things through accidental mislabeling of files on LimeWire or where you could look at other people's collections as well. Like you could explore their folders. Maybe that was a bit before limewire, what I used to do. And you'd find somebody else's collection, I guess. Now, obviously people can do that on, on streaming platforms and look at other people's playlists. But it was, it was. That was a certain generation where, like, the piracy thing actually just inspired so many people.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah. I mean, Metallica would probably beg to differ.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
But yeah, I actually think it was great because I don't think it stopped people buying music. Not real music heads.
Will Betts:
No, no.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
And the people that aren't really into music, we're never gonna buy anyway. So.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, yeah, that's. That was always my, my thoughts on it. And like, the amount of money I spent on artists, I discover through then from my entire life and still do. Like, I'm sure you do as well. And it's, it's. It becomes. Yeah.
Will Betts:
I wonder if Miles Davis's team around that time were uploading mislabeled files in order to get Miles Davis heard by a certain. By a new generation of music.
Chris Barker:
Blink 182 albums mental.
Will Betts:
You're not going to believe the trumpet solo.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I mean, as a genius, I might start doing that.
Will Betts:
I like your thinking, but you've talked in other interviews about arranging, doing horn arrangements of popular songs when you were growing up, like, and how you'd bring this to, to your brass band. Like, was there much interest from other people in those, in those bands for doing this sort of thing?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
No. I mean, no matter what situation I've been in in my life, I've always been the weirdo in the corner, like, oh, God, she's making us do this. Or. But because I, you know, I was like the principal cornet. They kind of had to do what I said in a way. But I could tell that people weren't really enjoying it. But for me, it was, you know, I've got this seemingly infinite, like, sound source here. Like, brass can do anything and we can do all these things and people just like.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
But I just want to play, like, the competition piece or I just want to play the marches. Why would I want to play your arrangement of Final Countdown? It's, like, cool. Because it's fun. Like, wouldn't you want to hear the song in a different, you know, context?
Chris Barker:
Or as in Europe's the final countdown.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah. That was one of the things that I arranged when I was about 13 for a brass band, and I thought it sounded good and, you know, just kind of like the beginning of my journey of, you know, arranging, being an arranger and then later going on, you know, to do that in further education.
Will Betts:
Were there any other big tunes that you arranged for that time? Is there one where you felt like.
Chris Barker:
Any blink182 there might have been.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Honestly, they really might have been. There's a couple of my own ones that I did as well and took to brass bands and people were like, yeah, but who are you? You're just. You're just a kid. And I was like, yeah, I am now. But I was like, it's going to be. You know, I can't. Even then I had the belief, I was like, I'm going to do this. Like, I'm going to be an artist.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I've always known that since I was a toddler. But I felt like other people around me didn't have the same belief. I even had, like, going to the orthodontist as a teenager, like, being like, you need braces. I'm like, no, I'm going to be professional trumpet player. And then, like, just get the braces. Like, you're not. And I'm like, I am so. I'm not getting the braces.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
And.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, that's amazing.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Come at me, dentist.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, there's the pull quote. So let's talk about building this studio. Let's look at where you would put it and what it might be like. I mean, I guess it might be yellow, right?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
No, I'm actually really into orange at the minute.
Chris Barker:
Okay, well, let's talk about location. Where would you. If you could have a studio anywhere in the world, where would it be and what would the kind of vibe and what would it look like?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I think about this all the time, you know, And I always come back to my house because that's where my studio is at the minute. It's just like the back room of my house. And I feel like that's what I need. I don't want to have to, like, put on shoes and go out in the middle of the night or wherever. I don't want to have to do that. I understand that it can be great to be like, okay, I have to get dressed and I have to leave the house in the morning, but I just need to be able to, like, dip in and out when I feel like it. And if I'm in my pants, Playing the piano, that I need to be allowed to do that. And you can't do that somewhere like this, for instance.
Chris Barker:
I think. I think a lot of artists get to a certain stage of their career where they may be financially able to have a separate studio. And I've seen this a lot, and then they just never go. And they end up with like two studios, like their pro, one that's off site and then they just make stuff on a laptop and a really limited setup at home because. And then it all comes back again because it's a certain type of person that wants to go, I'm going to work now, let's get the tube to my studio. But saying that where would you still be in London then? Like if you could have your house anywhere. So we're talking home studio. But is this your favorite place in the world or where would you be?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Home is definitely my favourite place in the world. I won't say where I live, but I'll just say it's not a gray area. So maybe I would transport the house somewhere else. But yeah, I think music for me is absolutely everything. Home is everything. I need to feel that comfort and that. That kind of ability to be vulnerable and just be completely comfortable. If I was somewhere that felt a bit too shiny, a bit too nice, I would feel.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I don't know, I'd feel like I couldn't mess up or I couldn't try something. So I need it to feel like, yeah, that's a bit dusty and that's fine over there. I kind of need that. I think.
Chris Barker:
So. London then.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
London. My house. My house now. It's basically my student now, but just a bit better.
Chris Barker:
Okay. Okay. That's okay. All right. And then so you get your, your three free items as well at the start here. So we talk in audio interface, daw and computer.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
It's not so much of a. It's not going to sound like a dream to other people, but it's what I already have.
Chris Barker:
Well, we're going to after.
Will Betts:
Well, it depends what you're going to say.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, I'm using like a really big imac. That's like specced to hell.
Chris Barker:
Okay.
Will Betts:
Okay. I'm not sure I can upsell.
Chris Barker:
No. Bingo.
Will Betts:
Get off the button.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
It's yeah, super spec'd up and particularly in terms of ram because I'm, you know, usually every single tune I do has got like at least 100 tracks I'm using. I've got what the brand is. This is. Yeah, that's how little I think about the brand of stuff, a lot of the time it's. Oh, it's a Universal audio kind of.
Chris Barker:
Apollo, which a XP or something.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, exactly. That's the one we're good for.
Chris Barker:
Model numbers.
Will Betts:
Love a model number. Yeah.
Chris Barker:
Especially memorable ones like axp. That's one of the better ones.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I've got the worst memory, so, yeah, you have to help me with that stuff. And. And I, I'm using logic at the minute. Like, I flitted between Ableton and Pro Tools at points and I feel like there's good stuff about all of them. Like, Ableton's great for like, building something and being creative. I feel like Pro Tools is great for mixing, but because I do both of those things and I don't like having to like transport stems everywhere. Just like Logic is just kind of fine because it can do both sides of it quite well. And I've modded the.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
The sort of visual aspects of everything to kind of be less logic and more kind of protoolsy. So it, yeah, works for me. And I'm not someone that likes change either, so I'm sort of feel comfortable there. Yeah. Even when I had to like move from logic 9 to 10 because I just. I had to get a new computer and it wouldn't. Logic 9 wouldn't work. And I like cried for like a whole day because I was like, I don't know where anything is in here.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
And it just, yeah, stressed me out. So I'm happy for that to be my dream forever and never change.
Chris Barker:
And what was your first. First door?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I think it was Cubase. Yeah. As a teenager I was making stuff in Cubase and like doing a lot of midi. I used to sit and make MIDI songs and do like transcriptions of songs or symphonies of stuff that I liked and then make MIDI versions of them so I could listen to them on my little like, rubbish ipods.
Chris Barker:
Right. You were telling me you did dream theater, right?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, I used to transcribe a lot of Dream Theater and I'd write out the scores and then I would play it into Cubase and then I'd have my own MIDI versions of Dream Theatre songs and then I would listen to them back like side by side and be like, okay, yeah, I got that. And I got that. Just like a nerd out.
Chris Barker:
Cubase is amazing for doing MIDI programming. Yeah. For that stuff, though. I used to do a similar thing when I was. But mainly just drum programming, but just trying to get it more and more intricate and accurate and going really digging into little velocities and everything. And.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, I love that.
Chris Barker:
To get really obsessed with it.
Will Betts:
You've talked before about, like, how you've invested in yourself a lot as, like, you're the most valuable thing in the studio. What do you think other people can do to invest in themselves as creatives?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I think it's about figuring out your own taste and what you like. A lot of people have got a good sense of, you know, intuitively. Like, I like this. I don't like this, but I don't think a lot of people go into why, and I think you really need to do that. It's like, well, I like this because of the way that they're approaching the harmony. And it's like, okay, we'll figure out what that harmony is, then figure out how to play it. You know, look at the sort of harmonic movement. And can you play that on the piano? Can you put down a few different keys so you just have that under your fingers to use at a different point in your own work? Or.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Oh, the drums sound great here. Okay. Yeah. But why? What is it that's really grabbing you? I think it's great that a lot of people want to move on. Intuition. I just think you can level that up. I don't think you have to learn all the theory. Like, I've worked with musicians that are incredible and can't read or write music, but they have a great ear and they know why they like something.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
They know why something works, why something doesn't work for them. And that's the important things, like, train your ear, make sure you know what you're about. I think. I think there's a lot of people that may be like, oh, you know, I'm trying to find my sound. It's like your sound is just an amalgamation of everything that you've heard that you've liked. So figure out what it is that you like.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, I think sometimes, like, you can feel like early on in your career that, well, maybe when you're a kid as well, that you can't copy other people's stuff. Like, I've got to be original because that, like, they were original, but actually, as we all know now, like, nothing was really original. They're all, like, slight steps ahead from something before and it's like sort of trying to copy and loads of great brands, you know, started off as cover bands and you do covers because you learn that, and that, like it or not, will influence when you start trying to write your own material. And, yeah, I think if you just sit there going, I'm going to be original. It's not really going to come. You kind of like. It's that transcribing dream theater and doing those things that kind of educates you to like, oh, yeah, that's what I like. And then, like you say, it just slips into your own music unconsciously eventually, for sure.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah. I never sit down and think, I'm gonna do this or I'm gonna do that. It's never, like, contrived in that way. It just comes out naturally and it's from. Yeah. Figuring out in that sort of way. Don't think everyone has to, like, sit and figure out, you know, a bunch of different theory stuff and learn a bunch of nerdy, you know, axis theory and all this kind of stuff. You don't need to do that.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
You can just be like, I like this because of this reason and I'm gonna use that in this next thing.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
And maybe it doesn't come of anything, but you will have learnt something 100%. That's the education.
Chris Barker:
And it's never exactly like what you're trying to be anyway, obviously, because it's got you in it. So it just becomes a new thing automatically. So we've locked in the universal audio, got the imac and we've got.
Will Betts:
Is it Logic 10 or is it Logic 11? Have you upgraded again or.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I've not upgraded.
Will Betts:
Okay.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I will have to be forced at gunpoint to do that at some point.
Chris Barker:
What about this jingle? I mean, that's kind of a musical gunpoint there.
Will Betts:
Yeah. I mean, you don't have to. But you Talked about modding logic 10. What, to look like pro tools. What have you done?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Well, it also kind of looks like Logic 9 as well. I just like, stripped back a bunch of the stuff. I never use any of the, like, AI drama nonsense. Just makes me feel a bit sick.
Will Betts:
And I was going to ask you about that, actually.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, I just can't abide it. Or like the. They've got like a sort of very abletonish loopy thing. I just don't want any of that. I just want to be able to record my, like, tracks into it. Record a full take on an instrument and then be like, okay, let's mix this. Or, you know, that's. That's.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I just want as little faff from the daw as possible. It's just there to capture rather than like, direct me.
Chris Barker:
And is the AI thing specifically that makes you feel a bit icky with the drummer, or is it just the actual.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
A little bit. I've got, like, a really good friend that works in AI and music, and what he's doing is amazing. And I sort of feel like, yeah, I'm on board with that. But I think sometimes you can take away the creativity. I think AI should aid, not replace. And I think there's too much of AI replacing. I can't remember. I read it, but I read a quote a long time ago about how, like, AI is making art for us when it should be doing the laundry and stuff to enable us to make art.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
So, yeah, I don't want to be told what to do. I just want to be helped. So I'm kind of. I am quite technophobic in lots of ways. Like, I sort of touch the technology as little as possible. Like, the studio is an instrument for me, but it's like, you know, in the way that I've got a keyboard that I bought from a market that's got a couple broken keys. That's kind of how I want the technology and how I want to interface with it. I want there to be, like, something to challenge me rather than it just being like, oh, great, I've got all the infinite possibilities on this digital synthesizer.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
And it's like, oh, I can't think of what to do.
Chris Barker:
It presents as infinite, but obviously it's not because it's just trained on.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yes. Just trained on people.
Chris Barker:
A limited amount of. So it presents as, like, oh, it's an infinite amount of things trained from a very finite amount of data.
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Chris Barker:
The scary quote is giving wealth access to skill while removing skills. Access to wealth.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, we're getting deep now. I know I said earlier that I'm not Rick Rubin satin in a bedroom, but I kind of feel like I am now.
Chris Barker:
Blows out candle.
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah. I just want to sit in a canvas sack. This is my dream studio. White room, me in the middle. Just like, just letting the music come to me. And I write it down on a notepad and I'll come out the other side and I'll give it to my label and go, here's the album. And then they'll be like, you're fine.
Will Betts:
Yeah, you need to make sure. In that vision, there's also a large lump hammer for breaking the looms. You know, full Luddite on this. So your six items, then we're into the six. What's item number one?
Chris Barker:
Wait, so we locked in Logic 10. We didn't upsell.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Not upselling, not upsell.
Will Betts:
I think that's entirely legitimate.
Chris Barker:
You were quite soft on that. No.
Will Betts:
Well, I don't want to force people into having things they don't want in their studio, especially if it's going to hinder them. I moved.
Chris Barker:
I thought that was the whole point of the podcast. That's all.
Will Betts:
You make a good point. Can I interest you in Logic11.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
One day? Right now I don't have the brain capacity to change anything. I'm not so good with change. So gradually we can talk about it. But today. No. No, thanks.
Will Betts:
Okay, Then today is Logic 10 and Forever. It's Logic 10 Forever Studio.
Chris Barker:
Okay. Okay, done. All right, well, let's go. Yeah. Item number one, then, of your six.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
There'S going to be a lot of microphones in this. I love the different ways that you can approach things in the studio just by changing how you're capturing it, where you are in the room. It's like that, for me is like, so, so important. And something that I used on Weirdo that I didn't buy, I just sort of borrowed. And now I look at it online, like, pretty much every single day, lusting after it. And it's the Terafunken Ila microphone. It's like a tube microphone and it sounds amazing. And yeah, I just sort of like, go to the website and just look at it for a little bit for like, maybe 10 minutes, going, oh, it's beautiful.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Sounds so good.
Chris Barker:
And was this borrowed forced upon you? Like, oh, you've got to try this microphone. Or was it something you said? Does anybody have one of these I can borrow?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Exactly the latter. Yeah, I need this. I'm not spending that.
Chris Barker:
What is it?
Will Betts:
How much is about 12 grand?
Chris Barker:
Oh, yeah, okay, that's. Yeah, that's fair then, isn't it? Fair? That's a lot of money.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, but it is worth it. It's so worth it. And I was just sort of like, I'll just. I'll borrow it for. To, you know, for this record and then I'll see if it really is worth the money. And then, yeah, pretty much every day after I finished, I just. I just go to the website on my phone and just look at it, like, one day.
Chris Barker:
Frustrating. When it lives up to its price and you is better. And now nothing compares to it.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Nothing compares to it for lead vocals. I didn't use it on any of the backing vocals, but, yeah, just use it for lead vocals. I just really just pop stuff out. The saturation on it is just, like, magical. And I feel like I can recognize it and other songs down, like, I know exactly what Mikey views done that I know where you stood And I know, you know, I can. Yeah, I feel like I can hear it. So that's number one on my list, I think.
Will Betts:
Telephone can elam 251.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
That's the guy.
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Chris Barker:
It's a snip. At £12,000, it is an excellent choice.
Will Betts:
So why didn't you use it for backing vocals then?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I just wanted a different sound. I feel like with the microphone choice, you can put people in a slightly different part of the space. And so for my backing vocals, I used the Kohl's 4038.
Chris Barker:
So.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah. Ribbon. A ribbon thing that's like. It's a lot darker and because it's like bi directional, you get a lot more of the room. And I just wanted to kind of separate the sound walls and have like the lead vocals right in your face, right in the middle, poking out of everything and the backing vocals to sort of surround you and being more, you know, a better part of the ensemble and just to feel a little bit more cohesive in that way.
Chris Barker:
And are you doing your own backing vocals as well?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I'm doing everything on the record, so.
Chris Barker:
I guess that makes sense as well. Because if you're using your voice, say mic. It doesn't. Yeah. It will help make your backing vocal sound slightly different as well. Yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
And I do like hold my mouth in slightly different positions or like slightly different positions around the microphone or, you know, different distances. And then the way I'm mixing it is like. Yeah, it's all about trying to make it feel real and not like a bunch of me's. Make it feel more like an ensemble.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
And you can do that with microphones. 100%.
Chris Barker:
So is that. That's part of your process, is for it to feel like a load of people in the room together?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah. I want it to feel like you're sitting and listening to a live band right in front of you. So I put a lot of effort into how I'm panning stuff, how much reverb there is in order to like send it further or backwards and, you know, the EQ and stuff to send it further or backwards. And I just want everyone to feel like they're in a room in front of you and you've got your headphones on, you've got your eyes closed, and that's what you can. That's what you can imagine.
Chris Barker:
So you're using the really old school fundamentals of mixing and production. Really like.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah.
Chris Barker:
Somebody that's self taught, though, that's, you know, you're going into that kind of what they used to do when it was a band in a room.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, yeah, I guess I am. Yeah. And I'm sure there's like, you know, a million wonderful plugins that can do that for you now. But I'd much rather do it the old way.
Chris Barker:
Probably do it in AI.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
You could probably do it in AI. Now.
Will Betts:
Where does that aesthetic for you come from, though? Because, you know, you've played live for a long time with a lot of different ensembles. Do you think that's informed that sort of preference, production wise?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
For sure, I think, yeah. My music education is about playing with people, playing in orchestras, brass bands, jazz bands, all this kind of stuff, and knowing what it's like to make a good sound in a room with people with no microphones. You're just there, a bunch of people in a room. How can you balance yourselves in the room? Like, being able to hear, like, this is too loud, it's too quiet. I need to do this, I need to do that. You know, you're tuning, you know, singing in the same way, singing syllables of the same pronunciation, all this kind of stuff just to, like, get it right in the room first. And then it's about capturing that. So when I can't play in a room with people, it's like I need to reverse engineer that and just focus on the performances of what I'm doing and then tweak it afterwards.
Chris Barker:
I mean, do you think that process will ever lead you to actually recording with a band and people in the room?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, I mean, I've done that before. Like, yellow is like, there's a lot of me on Yellow playing, like, most of the instruments, but there's also like a bunch of brass, a bunch of strings. You know, there's other people being like, oh, someone's coming to play drums on this. Like, yellow is a mixture. Weirdo needed to be me. Just like for my own mental health. But, you know, I love writing for other people. Like, my masters is actually in jazz orchestral composition.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
And I was. I moved to London because I thought I was going to be Carla Blay, which is like a really niche reference for non jazz orchestral composition nerds. I said, this is what I want to do. I'm gonna have my own jazz orchestra. And I did for like a month and then realized that it was, like, just too expensive and stressful to organize. But I love writing for other people and I feel like I can, you know, do that comfortably. And I've, you know, I still do that for people. Sometimes people still ask me to do Arrangements and stuff for them.
Chris Barker:
And what about TV and film?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, I've done. I've actually made music for a short film, something for Netflix, which was so fun. And I've done like stuff for like adverts and stuff. You know, I've done. I've done a lot of that and I will continue to. But yeah, I think for me it just depends on what's right for the record. For me, for Weirdo, I needed to not talk to anyone for about a year just to do my own thing. Maybe for the next one I'll be like, this has to all be 50 people in a room.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I'm going to record it at Abbey Road. And, you know, who knows?
Chris Barker:
You haven't got to that stage of thinking about the next one that I'm.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Starting to think about it, but I haven't decided on anything yet.
Chris Barker:
Okay.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I'll know when it comes and I'll be like, this is what I'm doing.
Chris Barker:
Okay, well, we've got that mic locked in.
Will Betts:
One mic locked in. Yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Item number two, I think I need another tape machine.
Chris Barker:
Another.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, I. So I really like to. To use different kinds of saturation in what I'm doing. So I've got like a four track. I don't know what brand it is.
Chris Barker:
Also another is in from one that you have in real life.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yes.
Chris Barker:
I was just trying to point out you just have a mic.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Oh, sorry.
Chris Barker:
We're in the fantasy forever fantasy world.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I need a tape machine. Yes. And then sometimes I put stuff on my SP404 and use like the tape emulator and record it back in. You can just like have a couple of different ways of approaching the saturation altogether. And it can sound really rich and wonderful. But one thing that I really love when I do go to other studios and don't work in mine and is like feeding stuff through a proper big tape machine that takes up a whole room.
Chris Barker:
Like a Studer or something.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, exactly. Something that.
Chris Barker:
Well, 800, is it?
Will Betts:
That's the famous one.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah. Yeah, I love that something. Yeah. You walk in the room and you can feel the heat coming off of it and nothing else can be in that room. That's kind of what I love. I want a separate bedroom that's just that in the studio and like in the studio house. And then maybe I'll sleep on the floor with a blanket.
Chris Barker:
Well, you won't need a blanket. It'd be nice and warm.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Exactly. Just keep it running all the time.
Will Betts:
Machine room?
Chris Barker:
Yes.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
A machine room. Yeah.
Will Betts:
Fully isolated, acoustically. Isolated, presumably, so you don't get all the clattering and the whirring and all of this. Okay.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
And I must wear a boiler suit whenever I go in just to feel like a proper engineer.
Will Betts:
Right.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I'll have it hung up on the back of the door.
Will Betts:
Like, what's that studio called that did White Stripes first record?
Chris Barker:
Is it Toe Rag?
Will Betts:
Toe Rag.
Chris Barker:
Toe Rag, Toe Jam.
Will Betts:
Sorry. Toe Rag Studios. I'm having a moment here. So do you. Do you have a particular tape machine in mind that.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I mean, I've used that one before. It's great. So, yeah, I'm happy for that to be my forever tape machine.
Will Betts:
And so that's going to slightly limit your editing possibilities unless you record it all back into the daw later. Do you want. Would you sort of want to just mix it straight off tape, or would you want to be putting it back into Logic for your mixing?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I like to put it back into the daw. Yeah, I've done that before because sometimes I want to, like, cut something out and loop it. And I like the fact that I can choose. So. Yeah.
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Chris Barker:
Okay. I'm enjoying the. The price of the studio. It's good. Forever Materialist. Yeah.
Will Betts:
Really punchy. I need to get price on the A800, but, yeah, it's not. It's not cheap.
Chris Barker:
They don't make them anymore. Right. This is. So it's going to be secondhand.
Will Betts:
No, it's gonna. Yeah, we're looking at what we guessing.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Oh, I've got no idea, actually.
Chris Barker:
Come on, have a guess.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
50.
Chris Barker:
50 pounds.
Will Betts:
Do you know what? I can't even find one for sale.
Chris Barker:
We'll come back to that.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
That means we can't afford it, I think.
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
If you have to actually price an application.
Chris Barker:
Okay, well, that's. So that's two. Let's lock in item number three, then. What are you gonna go for? Item number three?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
A P bass. A vintage P bass. I'm not super picky about the year, but for me, that is the sound. It's one of the most versatile basses. I mean, it's. It's such a. A weird kind of, like, juxtaposition of ideas because actually it sounds very distinctive, but I think you can do a lot with it, I think. Yeah, it's just the perfect bass for me.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
So in the studio that I'm making, where I'm playing all the instruments and forever that I need one, I've got to have one.
Chris Barker:
And was it a particular artist or how did you discover that the P bass Was the one. That's Fender, right, as well. Fender P bass, right?
Will Betts:
Yes. Yep.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
From hearing it on. Just all the music I grew up loving and then. And then starting to get into different bassists a bit later, like. But even people like Carol Kay. She's one of my favorite bassists of all time. Seeing her doing stuff with Brian Wilson and, like, seeing bits of video footage, and she's, like, really up there and making it sing, and then she's down here and it's. It's just. Yeah, it's just the perfect bass hand and it's all over.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Weirdo. I'm only using a P bass on that.
Chris Barker:
Do you want Carol King? Carol Kay's. And he said Carol King. They're different.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
She. If she could come too, she's allowed on the list. I'd love.
Chris Barker:
You could take her bass.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
No, I want my own. Carol's got to keep playing.
Chris Barker:
Okay. Okay. That's nice of you, that.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, I'm cool like that.
Chris Barker:
Her to wake up one day and just be like, where's the. I guess I'll just give up. Exactly. Yeah.
Will Betts:
Had a lot of those on this show, actually. People cursing.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, they'd be cursing us. Really?
Will Betts:
They would be cursing us. Yes.
Chris Barker:
Why did you encourage us?
Will Betts:
Yeah, we forced you to do this. So your P bass, what's. Where does it come from? Is there. Is anything particularly special about it? Is there a sentimental attachment?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
It's. I mean, it's sentimental because it's mine and it's my favorite bass. I've got a couple basses. Like, one is like a really old. I think it's Ibanez 1, so it kind of lends itself that kind of rock sound. But then I've really, really messed with it. And I put, like, foam underneath the strings and from that kind of, like, Motown sound. And it doesn't quite work because it's not really the bass for that.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
But, you know, I've made it do its own thing.
Chris Barker:
What was your first bass, then? Out of those.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Some Squire kind of thing, I think.
Chris Barker:
Okay.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
And I'm not knocking Squires. I think they're great. I actually know I won't name him, but I know a professional bassist that uses a Squire P bass, and it actually sounds really good.
Will Betts:
It's interesting you say I won't name him because there's so much stigma still around those cheaper instruments, which do sound great. You know, a lot of them, especially the. The classic vibe. And these ones are awesome sounding instruments.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I think, particularly if you've spent what I imagine is a lot of money on the pickups that he's put in it as well. It's like. Yeah, sounds great.
Chris Barker:
It's a bit like Trigger's broom. It's like, not really a squire bass anymore.
Will Betts:
No, not anymore.
Chris Barker:
It's got a new neck, different strings. Been set up by one of the best guys in the world.
Will Betts:
Different pickups, switched out the body and the neck. Yeah.
Chris Barker:
The headstock, that's squier.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
That's the original one for the logo.
Will Betts
Yes, building on Audient’s decades of design heritage, the iD range spans from the portable iD4 to the feature-packed iD14, 24 and 44 interfaces, plus an awesome, brand new flagship
Chris Barker
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--
Chris Barker:
That's the one we're on to. Item number four.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I would like a suitcase Rhodes, please. Oh, I just love the sound that you get from the amp. It's very distinct and just, you know, Rhodes is, like, pretty much the. The backbone of a lot of the music that I make. I think it's, like, such an important part of my sound, but if I could just elevate it in my dream studio and be able to actually mic the amp and I just. Yeah, I think it would be next level. I want to do that.
Chris Barker:
And we can't upsell you to the latest Roads.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
The eight, I think it's called, I have played. And it is great. I think. Yeah. What they're doing up in Leeds is really good stuff, but I feel like the new version is perfect for live. I think that's where I would choose.
Chris Barker:
And touring and being. Yeah. Being reliable and that kind of thing. And then you'd have your old school one in your studio.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Exactly, yeah. Because, like, I feel I'm gonna get super nerdy about, like, road sounds now.
Will Betts:
Please.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
When I take my Roads out on tour, it takes a little bit of work to sculpt it, to make it sound good in a, you know, a big room. Because it's got so much sort of low mids, it can sound a little bit kind of muffled. The new one, I think, is a good blend because you could also. I mean, you could just, like, take around, like, a Nord or something that's got a road sound, but that sounds a little bit thin in a big room. And I feel like the new Rhodes Mark 8 is kind of like a good blend of, like, it's got some of the Rhodes character, but it's not quite as, like, thuddy. It's just a nice blend. So, yeah, for live, that's what I would use. But this is my dream studio, not my dream live rig.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
So I want a suitcase.
Chris Barker:
Okay.
Will Betts:
Mark one. Suitcase.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, yeah, Mark one. Okay.
Will Betts:
Yeah. Very nice. Very nice. Choice.
Chris Barker:
1969 mic'd up with the telephunking. It Onto tape. That's pretty good, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Giving me goosebumps.
Chris Barker:
I mean, what are the mark ones going for? They've got to be thousands, right?
Will Betts:
Looking at about six and a half grand.
Chris Barker:
Okay.
Will Betts:
Just to jump back to the studa, that was about 13 to 14,000.
Chris Barker:
Okay. For a bargain.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Should we all go in on one now?
Will Betts:
Yeah, I think, look, I can make a call or two or three.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Maybe I'll get it Monday to Tuesday, you can get it Wednesday. Thursday you can get Friday. Saturday and Sunday, we'll fight for it.
Chris Barker:
Okay.
Will Betts:
Or you circulate just round robin for the Sunday.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, fine. Fair.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
We'll do that.
Will Betts:
The roads, though, it features a lot in your work. Like, is that where you start your writing often, or does it sort of come later?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
As a textual element, it can be like. I think there's different ways that things sort of sprout as a seed. And it could be just like walking around the house, singing something, or outside the house and I'm. You know, my phone is full of millions of voice notes of me, like, singing, singing little bits. Or it could be sat at the piano or the Roads and just being like, I've got an idea for a bass line and a couple chords and then something comes from there. But also, I've had whole songs, including knowing how I'm going to produce everything, just, like, appear instantly in my heads. So it could be a couple different ways. I've also, like, sat at the piano and, like, wrote a whole song just, like, in real time, like, with the words and everything.
Chris Barker:
So you are having these Rick Rubin moments of just. There it is, there's the whole song.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, yeah, I guess so. Except. No, actually, yeah. Maybe I should do a book.
Will Betts:
It's time.
Chris Barker:
It's time for the book. Okay, well, so item number five.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Item number five. I'm gonna come back to another microphone. I would like a Neumann U67. Because I need something to record some different kinds of vocals, but also some drums.
Chris Barker:
Which drums are you recording? Item number six. Drums.
Will Betts:
Don't jump the gun, Chris. Okay, so U67.
Chris Barker:
Well, it's gonna get. I can already. Listeners. Viewers might have already spotted it, but it's gonna get interesting.
Will Betts:
It's gonna get interesting. In the last spot. We might need to. Yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Do I actually have to pay for all this stuff?
Chris Barker:
Yeah, that's it.
Will Betts:
That's not the catch.
Chris Barker:
We're paying.
Will Betts:
We're paying.
Chris Barker:
You walk out to the car park and it's all just there. And an invoice. You agree to this.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah. The release form, there was like a little bit of fine print at the bottom that I didn't read.
Chris Barker:
That's how we pay for the podcast. Yeah, yeah. The markup on all this kit.
Will Betts:
Yeah, yeah. It's the Forever Studio tariff. So tell us more about your choosing the U67 then.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I love the way that they sound. You can get them sounding so crunchy. You can get them sounding so modern. Like, I think just to kind of look at two different people that use this microphone that will sound very different to people's ears. It's like one is Mac DeMarco who can make music that sounds like ageless in a way, and someone else is Drake. That's one of his microphones of choice. So his vocals. And I'm not necessarily like mad into Drake, but I think it's interesting to get into the production house that he uses.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
And for someone that makes ultra modern sounding music that's always trying to be like, oh, what's the next sound? How can we think about the sound of tomorrow? To be using a microphone that is like so, so old and used on like stuff from decades ago I think is actually really interesting because it's just such a special microphone and you can use it in lots of different ways. It could be great as a lead vocal mic. You could put it on the drums. I'm sure it would sound great. Miking up my suitcase in this dream studio as well. I think there's just lots of different capacities for it.
Chris Barker:
So is the 67 available still? That's. Or is it a vintage?
Will Betts:
You can buy them new now, right? Yeah, but you've gone for two tube mics. Not. And no ribbon, interestingly.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
How many dream items have I got left? Maybe we should swap one then.
Will Betts:
We got one left.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Okay. Changing it.
Will Betts:
Do we need to call that UC7's gone.
Chris Barker:
Bam.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
A ribbon microphone. That big guy. I can't remember the model, but it looks about the size of your head. It's very square. It's got the Swiss cheese grill.
Chris Barker:
Like the RCA style ones.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yes.
Will Betts:
Yeah, yeah. The. The A440 is the all silver one. Or there's the one that's the sort of cylindrical.
Chris Barker:
It'll be off the box one.
Will Betts:
The boxy one. Yeah, it's the. That's the A440.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Okay. Yeah. I've used that on some backing vocals before and I just thought it sounded velvety magic. It sounded so good the way it picked up the like warm, woody resonance of the room and people's like, breaths. But not in, like, too much of a way. It just felt like very nicely. Everything just sat so nicely that I was like, I need to. I need to get one of these one day.
Chris Barker:
What's the difference between the A and the R, though? Is. Is not. They are the ribbon.
Will Betts:
The R440A stands for active, so it's an active ribbon.
Chris Barker:
And the other one, I guess, isn't active, I guess. Right.
Will Betts:
The R44C is an exact replica of the RCA 44BX, the Big Ribbon.
Chris Barker:
And the other one is that. But active. So modernized. Okay. Yeah, modernized.
Will Betts:
More difficult to blow up.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Will Betts:
Which is always good. And where did you use this? What was the session you were recording on?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
It was the backing vocals for Yellow. Who, like, the backing vocals is mostly me, but I also got some other people in as well to do a session, just to kind of do once through the record, just to kind of beef up the sound. And we were all in a room together and there were a couple close mics, but mostly it was just the sound of this. This ribbon and the room. And I just felt like, yeah, this is just really elevated everything. So, yeah, I need one, I think.
Chris Barker:
Okay.
Will Betts:
And just. Just bringing it back to the. Mixing your own backing vocals, then what you said you did it. All sorts of tricks about being at different places around the microphone and covering your mouth. What other tricks do you use in mixing to make your own backing vocals sit well together with your own voice as lead?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
When I'm mixing it, it's about placement more than anything else. So I'll usually have the. The lower harmonies, like, just slightly wide of center. And then as things get higher, they're going further and further away from the center, which is, I think, always a good way to kind of approach stuff. First of all, in terms of, like, where your frequencies are sitting. And then I like to, like, double everything minimum. So, like, you've got left and right and then sort of double them again and have one of them slightly closer to you, one of them slightly further away. So you can, like, mess with how much is being sent to the reverb.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
And it just kind of just. Yeah, it just creates, like, not just space this way, but space this way. You've got the depth and you've got the. The wideness of it. And then I. I use. I will. I'm going to gatekeep one thing.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I do use a really nice room reverb that I put everything into just to kind of help me put stuff and position them in space and just. Yeah, just the Amount that I send to each person is, like, very slightly different to help me sort of create a 3D image of the room. Yes. And then that on top of them, me being, like, singing the stuff and like, with slightly different, like, tessiture of my voice or, like, being slightly different positions away from the microphone or to the side or whatever to make it seem like it's like one mic, like this AE ribbon capturing a bunch of people. It's like, yes, a lot of.
Chris Barker:
So do you picture in logic, you've got a track of a backing vocal, and do you picture where they're stood in a room?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, exactly.
Chris Barker:
Okay.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
And then I try and make that happen through, like, different. Different things. Yeah.
Will Betts:
Do you go full method and actually change character for each of your performances?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I absolutely do.
Chris Barker:
Do you?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah.
Will Betts:
Amazing.
Chris Barker:
Different outfits sometimes.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Different outfits. That is great. When I made my Ley Lines EP years ago, I literally was like. I was doing all the. All the performances, and I was like, okay, I'm the drummer now, and I'm, you know, a bit of an asshole, and I'm feeling angry.
Chris Barker:
You were late to your own session?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I was late. I couldn't find anywhere to park. And I've got, like, a hat on, and I sort of, like, pulled my hat further down, and I'm, like, playing a little bit more aggressively. And then I'm like the bassist. I'm like, I'm cool. I'm a chill person. Like, it's fine. I've got a cup of tea and I'm just like.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
And sort of helped me be a little bit further behind the beat. Whereas the drummer, who was angry further ahead of the beat. And I feel like I don't necessarily need to change the clothes now. I can just sort of try and embody that. Okay, where am I gonna sit in terms of, like, the groove of my head? Am I behind? Am I this? Am I that?
Chris Barker:
That's great.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I do go a bit methods.
Will Betts:
And you can really tell on the record as well. Like, I was. I was shocked when I found out it was you playing everything. I was like, there's so many different characters of performance on this record. So. Yeah. Nice. It works.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Thank you.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, Method works. The Daniel Day Lewis approach to music production.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I taught him everything he does. I was like, that left leg you're gonna need. I'm gonna have you want to. Really. If you want that, Oscar, you need to let me kick you in the shins.
Chris Barker:
Yeah. Not the first time I've ever heard that. Yeah. So final item.
Will Betts:
Final item. And we have to point out, at this point, you don't have anything to listen back on.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Oh, no.
Chris Barker:
Dun, dun, dun.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I was going to talk about, like, a lovely preamp. I don't even have any speakers.
Will Betts:
No.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
You know what? I'll just use my headphones.
Chris Barker:
What headphones?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Oh, you're being really strict now.
Will Betts:
Well, you could listen back. I mean, you've got little speakers built into your imac.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Will Betts:
And we have allowed in the past, if you have some headphones in your pocket that go with your, like, AirPods.
Chris Barker:
Or other manufacturers are available.
Will Betts:
Yeah. If you've got a wired headphone that goes into your phone, you can use that, but you're not allowed anything special.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
You know what? I can deal with that because sometimes I do check my mixes on, like, a laptop forever. Forever would be really hard.
Chris Barker:
Not being able to listen back to that beautiful tape machine. It's quite sick, isn't it, how much I like hanging.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
You know what I kind of like? I kind of like this. The fact that I've got this beautiful gear and I'm never gonna be able to hear it. It's kind of poetic. It's almost like Beethoven, like. Like, you know, when he started to go deaf.
Chris Barker:
So you could do that. You could just have a rod attached to the tape machine.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I'm gonna have a metal rod, and I'm gonna jam it into the headphone output of the interface.
Chris Barker:
Beethoven had a, like, rod at the front of his piano.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah.
Chris Barker:
And you should bite on it so you could hear it through his.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
That's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna metal rod it into the Apollo interface.
Chris Barker:
Yeah. So final item, metal rod.
Will Betts:
Luxury item, metal rod.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
You can't let me have the metal rod.
Chris Barker:
No, yeah, you can have a metal rod.
Will Betts:
Yeah, sure, sure.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
In which case, my final item is 1073 preamp. I think this is one of the most versatile things. I'm using a clone at the minute, which actually sounds pretty good, but doesn't quite compare to the real thing.
Chris Barker:
That's neve, right?
Will Betts:
Yeah. Yeah. Why the 1073 and not a pair of speakers? Not a pair of speakers or not a guitar or not a trumpet or any of these other things that it could have been in that last place.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I think you can put anything through the 1073, and I do. Well, my clone version of it. And.
Chris Barker:
Plus, we know because of the Jungle interview on our podcast, you don't need trumpets anymore anyway. You just go.
Will Betts:
Yeah, you do mouth trumpets.
Chris Barker:
That's what Jungle did.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, yeah, that's What I do.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
On stage as well. I just mime it.
Will Betts:
You just mime it?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Just mime it now.
Will Betts:
It's really impressive because the videos make it look like you're holding a trumpet.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, no, it's all. That's all in post. It's all done in post. I'm just suggesting the trumpet to the point that you see it. It's not actually there.
Chris Barker:
Method.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
That's the power of the method acting. I did go to drama school.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Will Betts:
Paying off.
Chris Barker:
Yeah. Specifically on the trumpet illusion, which is day one of drama school. The trumpet illusion.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
If you see in interviews enough London based trumpet player, you'll believe it.
Chris Barker:
Yeah. Right.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I've never picked up a trumpet in my life. Yeah, it's. It's just power of persuasion.
Will Betts:
So you've been paying gossip columnists to refer to you as a trumpet player? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well tried and true.
Chris Barker:
That's what we did with podcast hosts and stuck somehow. Somehow we have a podcast now.
Will Betts:
I'm shocked and delighted by the the Neve 1073 decision. What's your first experience with the 1073 and why. Why is it so important to the studio?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
My first experience with it was what was called Soup Studios is now called Lighthouse Studios on the ship. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was just like, what is this? And they're like, oh, it's a 73, but it's like in a different casing and we've messed with it and I just thought that anything that we put through it sounded so good. And you know, I said before that I'm really into like using different kinds of saturation in different ways, different levels. I think just having something coming in through preamp, just you're starting from such a good place and that plus it's coming in through the tape. It's just like I'm not gonna need to do any mixing really. I think you could just be like, yeah, that's it. This is the sound.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
As long as you're performing it correctly and your performance is a bang on, I won't need to do any post stuff at all. Apart from a bit of chopping to do some loops.
Chris Barker:
Well, again, like you said, old recordings like of classic songs. That's exactly how it was done, wasn't it? It's just like everybody stand where you are, play the best you can and we go in the best signal path and that's it.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Exactly. One mic in a room.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Will Betts:
I might have an upsell for you.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Okay.
Will Betts:
Upsell your dream.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
The 1074.
Will Betts:
Well, nice. So There is such a one better. There is such a thing as a 1073 SPX D, which is a 1073 audio interface. If you wanted to switch out your interface.
Chris Barker:
No, the interface is free. A free item. Oh, I see.
Will Betts:
Oh, so you could free up another item.
Chris Barker:
Hacking it for the guests. I like it.
Will Betts:
You could. If you were willing to part with your Apollo and use the 1073 pre interface instead, then you would have another item at your disposal.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yes, please, let's.
Will Betts:
Yeah. Should we do that? Okay.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
You've upsold me.
Chris Barker:
Well done. And that's neve as well. That's great.
Will Betts:
That's neve as well. Yeah, the Neve.
Chris Barker:
When did this come out? This. I've never heard of this. This is new.
Will Betts:
This is in the last couple of years, I think. This came out.
Chris Barker:
I mean, it's not really in my wheelhouse for.
Will Betts:
You know, I'd like to keep an eye on the. The papers when it comes to preamps and interfaces. Okay, so you have, you have then one final item. An extra bonus final item.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I'm gonna go for the metal rod. I need the metal rod.
Will Betts:
Wasted it. Completely wasted it.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
No, leave some speakers. They hear all this stuff.
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
This is so subjective, isn't it? Because people will argue to the end of time about what the best speaker is and like, oh, you need this. But I think. And this is kind of a theme of like just elevating on what I've already got. I've got. I can't remember the. The model number, but I've got these genelecs that have got just one source of sound rather than like three different cones or whatever.
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
And for me that helps massively because I can work all day without my ears getting tired. Whereas before I. I couldn't do that before. These speakers, like with a single source.
Chris Barker:
I don't know.
Will Betts:
Yeah. They were called the Ones.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
That's it. The Ones.
Will Betts:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Coaxial design.
Chris Barker:
Ah, yes.
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Chris Barker:
And the Ones with that, the technology that room corrects and things.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, I've used all that and it's. It's great. I'm really, really happy with them. So in my dream studio, which is much bigger than my tiny, tiny real studio, I can go for the biggest size, maybe even a cheeky sub. And. Yeah. Lovely time.
Chris Barker:
I think it's a bundle.
Will Betts:
Is it a system?
Chris Barker:
I think it's a system I know you're gonna have to do. They sell it with a sub as a system.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
You don't need to. Don't Google that.
Will Betts:
Don't Google that.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
All the same.
Chris Barker:
I can't believe I'm having to administer the rules.
Will Betts:
No, okay, hang on, hang on, hang on.
Chris Barker:
You're doing hacks and I'm doing the rules.
Will Betts:
Yes. It's a.
Chris Barker:
We've switched.
Will Betts:
We've switched. It's Freaky Friday. The ones. Yeah.
Chris Barker:
I actually went to the launch of those speakers. I think I should have remembered the. The type. Yeah. And they did, they did. Was in Finland at Genelec hq and they did like an example where they had. In one of the basements, which was just like a stone, like a wine cellar, curved. They'd set them up just in empty and they just.
Chris Barker:
Room correction on, room correction off. And it was insane because it was like they just added acoustic treatment into this kind of like, wow, almost like a bathroom type, you know, like that really reflective stone room. Obviously it wasn't perfect. It's never going to be perfect because there was no acoustic trimming. But the difference was enormous.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
It changes your life and that sounds really huge.
Chris Barker:
I haven't heard any other room correction things, but that Genelec one was certainly very good.
Will Betts:
Well, Gary Barlow chose that Trinov system. I heard that in action. That's crazy as well.
Chris Barker:
And that's like even more premium, isn't it?
Will Betts:
Yeah. Thousands and thousands just for the room correction, which is.
Chris Barker:
That was Barlow's secret item, wasn't it?
Will Betts:
It was, yeah. Okay. We're allowed the largest set of the Genelec ones you may have.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Thank you so much.
Will Betts:
And it's. You said primarily because you don't get as tired listening to them.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah. Like I. The way my focus is like I'm such an all or nothing person in all aspects of my life and that is like. Yeah. Even more concentrated when it comes to my attention span. So I am either like staring at the wall and like can't respond to an email. It just feels too difficult. Or I've been sat in the studio for like 12 hours and I've not gone to the bathroom.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I've not had a drink of water. I've done nothing. I'm just locked in. So I need to have something to help my ears. And like, if I'm doing something, like if I'm recording all day and I've got like, you know, clothes backs on, like I just can't do it for that long. Like my ears are so sensitive when.
Chris Barker:
You'Ve got that in your personality, that those extremes. And I can kind of relate to this. Things like headphones or things that feel oppressive, they sort of Wind you up?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, I just chuck them across the room.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, but no, but they do though. They get like they don't. And it's having that where it doesn't feel like there's any barrier between you and then you just get locked into the process.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Exactly. I want the technology to be there but not to really notice it.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
And with the ones I'm really noticing that it's just kind of like it feels as close to my ears as possible. I'm not hearing like any sort of extra color necessarily. I'm just hearing exactly what I need to hear.
Chris Barker:
If I'm doing a mundane task like going through audio after audio for whatever reason, doing it on headphones just gets me on edge because it's like, you know, like searching for certain loops or sounds. It's like if it's out of speakers then it feels a little bit more invisible. I don't know. So I kind of really get your point.
Will Betts:
And you can talk to your neighbors as well.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
My neighbors love me. Yeah. But I hate them too. So it's fine.
Will Betts:
Perfect.
Chris Barker:
That's why I can't go to co working spaces. People go, I'll use my co working space. Like you would not like me in a co working space. Just going through snare samples. You invited me. I am locked in. I'll be here all night.
Will Betts:
So one of those things that you find that you sort of hyper focus on and what are the things that just feel like you just want to pass off to somebody else in the studio?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
If I ever have like a deadline and someone's like I need this by 11 o' clock tomorrow, I'm like, oh God, I just can't.
Chris Barker:
That means I'm gonna have to start at half ten tomorrow.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Exactly.
Will Betts:
I can't do anything until then.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, yeah. I feel there's lots of things in my life that like my neurodiversity is like painful for. But I think when it comes to my career, I think it's like actually helped me in lots of ways because I've got like, I've got really severe ADHD where I just like I, you know, piles of admin that needs to be done and won't ever get done. But I can just lock in when it comes to being creative and it's anything to do with music, I am there. I will not move from that chair. I didn't even have a chair in my list. But it's alright. I'm cross legged on the floor, aren't I? I'm Rick Rubling.
Chris Barker:
It. Yeah, exactly. Chair is fine, don't worry. And you've still got. Well, we'll do a rundown in a second, but you still do have a luxury item, so think about that. Which isn't a bit of kit. So. But for now, let's run down.
Will Betts:
We're at your home in London, somewhere you don't have to put shoes on, where you have the ability to be comfortable and vulnerable. But it does need to be a little dusty. Your computer is an iMac, fully specced. Your interface is the Neve1073SPX D. Your DAW is Logic 10. You're not upgrading. For your first item, you've chosen the Telefunken Elam 251 microphone. Item number two is the Studa A800 Mark III.
Will Betts:
For an instrument, you've gone for the vintage Fender P Bass. You've chosen the Rhodes Mark one. Suitcase for keys. Item number five is the Neumann. No, it's not. You switch to the AEA440, the A440 ribbon microphone. And your final item to listen back on, you've chosen the Genelec speakers. The ones.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Perfect.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Will Betts:
Is that all you need, do you think?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I think that's all I need. I honestly could sit and make a record with all that stuff.
Will Betts:
100%, no guitar.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Ah. I'll put the road through some plugins and I'll be fine.
Chris Barker:
Yeah, done. Okay, so that, that leaves us with the luxury item. Any particular thing you would like in the studio? Not a piece of kit.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Well, we were talking about a really nice candle earlier, weren't we?
Chris Barker:
Just a single candle?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Just one candle and one cushion on the floor.
Chris Barker:
That's two luxurious things like that no one does.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
You're kidding me. You're kidding me.
Will Betts:
Cushioned candle.
Chris Barker:
Yeah. I always think of like artwork or something that you would take if you moved studios or if you were forced to go somewhere else to record, that.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
You would take maybe my record player, maybe my notebook, maybe.
Chris Barker:
This is quite roomy. It's quite minimal.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Maybe just my phone.
Chris Barker:
You get your phone, you've got your phone.
Will Betts:
We're not gonna cut you off from the world.
Chris Barker:
Fantasy Forever stream.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I kind of want you to, in a way. Yeah, I guess. My notebook then. Like everything that I write, sometimes it goes down on my, you know, voice notes app. But most of the time I write it down and I write out the lead sheet of it and I write it down physically as sheet music because that's just how I process stuff and words and stuff, you know, I Need to be able to write down all the little poems and stuff that come into my head. So I need my notebook. And I know we said no bundles, but if you will allow me a pencil, I'll be very pleased.
Chris Barker:
I mean, I would allow you a notebook and a pencil as a normal item.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, I don't think it's a really nice notebook. I don't think you know how nice this notebook is.
Chris Barker:
Okay.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
It's like.
Will Betts:
We want the details, please.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Oh, it's like a thousand pounds, this notebook. It's so good. It's like the best notebook that's ever done.
Will Betts:
Wow.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah.
Will Betts:
Is it ruled with the stave?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yep.
Will Betts:
Okay.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
But on the other side, it's just plain, so I can write down words and doodles.
Chris Barker:
But the stave is made out of its pressed hairs from famous people.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, it's Rick Rubens hair.
Will Betts:
Oh, wow.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
That we've glued in.
Will Betts:
Wow. So it's on. It's on a black paper, so it shows up with the grit. I see. Yeah. Yeah. That does sound expensive.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Really? Oh, it's so luxury. It's like the nicest one you've ever seen.
Chris Barker:
Well, a luxury item is the notepad. I like it, though.
Will Betts:
A notebook ruled with Rick Rubin's hair.
Chris Barker:
Yeah. Hmm.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah.
Will Betts:
Nice. Is that where you thought you were gonna end up?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
No, I didn't come in with a plan. Maybe I should have thought of a plan before I sat down forever.
Chris Barker:
You'll open the notebook. Rick Ruben's hair in my notebook. Why did I decide on this?
Will Betts:
Yeah. Don't set that on fire.
Chris Barker:
No, no.
Will Betts:
Was it. It seemed like you had something else that was coming to mind before we ended up down the notebook path.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, that may be my. My record player. Because, you know, there's. If I want some guitar, I'm gonna have to sample it, I guess, because I don't have one in my allotted items. And I think, as I was saying before, like, the most important part of music education is listening to stuff and figuring out what is that you like. So I can't do that if I don't have a record player.
Chris Barker:
So we've mentioned one already, but do you want to give us three records that have been really important to you in your career?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
So. So, so many.
Chris Barker:
Or that you would advise other people that kind of. To listen to that they might not know. That's like a bit of curation for other people. Like you did when you were a kid with the making mixed CDs. Was it miles Davis?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Was it Miles Davis?
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
He's the best.
Chris Barker:
Yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
You won't have heard of him, but.
Chris Barker:
What'S the modern version of that now?
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Steve Lacy.
Chris Barker:
Okay.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I think is amazing. I really feel a lot of affinity with him because he's someone else that will just like, sit and make the whole track himself in a room. I think he records even on his phone and stuff as well at points. And I just think he's coming from lots of different points of view and different styles and, like, this jazz and there's R and B in there. There's all this different kind of stuff, and there's hip hop, but he sounds uniquely him. He just needs a microphone and a room so he can join me in my white shell.
Chris Barker:
We're not having him on the podcast, then. One item.
Will Betts:
Is there a track? Because Bad Habit is like, the. The big one he had.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah. I mean, I'm so bad with names, I can't remember the name of the record. It's got a picture of his dog on the front.
Chris Barker:
I like him already.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I think that's the best one he's done.
Will Betts:
Oh, yeah, The Lo fi's.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
That's it.
Will Betts:
2020.
Chris Barker:
Steve Lacy. The Lo Fi's.
Will Betts:
Yeah.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah. So if I'm allowed one record in my record player. Bundle.
Chris Barker:
Wait, bundle? What?
Will Betts:
I'm not.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Definitely not.
Will Betts:
I know.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Bundle.
Chris Barker:
Okay, fair enough. Well, then, I mean, all that's left to say now is thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I mean, it's been a pleasure. And thank you for letting us try and upsell. I think we did a bit of upsell.
Will Betts:
We did a bit of upselling there. Yeah, I think so.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Changed my interface, and I'm. I don't like change, but you've changed me.
Chris Barker:
I think that would be a good interface for you generally.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
I'm actually gonna Google it on the train.
Will Betts:
Yeah. Yeah. Solid. Thank you so much, Emma.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
Chris Barker:
Well, all that's left to say is thank you for tuning in, and we will catch you next time for another adventure into studio foreverdom.
Emma-Jean Thackray:
Bye. Bye.
Will Betts:
Bye. Bye, Sam.